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  1. #21
    Member awerby's Avatar
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    Default Re: Motor Choice for Taig Mill?

    Unless you either figured out how to reverse it or mount it upside-down.

    [FONT=Verdana]Andrew Werby[/FONT]
    [URL="http://www.computersculpture.com/"]Website[/URL]


  2. #22
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    Default Re: Motor Choice for Taig Mill?

    Quote Originally Posted by noisillator View Post
    One of my neighbors threw out their Proform treadmill, so I dragged it home. The controller is a MC1200-12. Just now pulled the motor, and the label reads as follows:

    Permanent Magnet DC Motor

    2.65 HP 130 VDC 18 Amps 6700 RPM Rotation - CW

    Continuous duty: 1.5 HP 95 VDC

    I'm guessing the CW rotation is the death knell for this project?
    Quote Originally Posted by awerby View Post
    Unless you either figured out how to reverse it or mount it upside-down.
    You should be able to use that motor. I've worked with many of this type of motor and there is nothing electrically to prevent you from reversing the leads and running it CCW will work.

    Considering the application they thread the output shaft 1/2"-13 LEFT so that the flywheel is always tightening.

    I have run these motors in both directions with no issues.

    Mike N

    No good deed goes unpunished.


  3. #23
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    Default Re: Motor Choice for Taig Mill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twmaster View Post
    You should be able to use that motor. I've worked with many of this type of motor and there is nothing electrically to prevent you from reversing the leads and running it CCW will work.

    Considering the application they thread the output shaft 1/2"-13 LEFT so that the flywheel is always tightening.

    I have run these motors in both directions with no issues.
    Are you sure they were this model? It's a N1CPM-138T. I'm asking because it makes clicking noises if I turn it CCW by hand. CW is quiet. I'm thinking I should eBay it and look for something else. Lots of these with asking prices of more than $100, and the controllers aren't cheap either. Might be able to recover most of my costs that way.

    Thanks for mentioning the flywheel, I was going to use a puller. Any tips on unthreading it?

    Jack



  4. #24
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    Default Re: Motor Choice for Taig Mill?

    You are not going to find a treadmill motor that runs CCW. The reason you are hearing a clicking is because the brushes have worn into that direction. After some use they should seat into the other direction. Yes, it may take some life off the motor but unless you run that Taig 24/7 you should have it for many years.

    Of course if you are that uncomfortable you can try to sell it on FeeBay. Expect $40-50 for it. Still worth harvesting even if you do not end up using it.

    The best way I've found to pull the flywheel is to use two Vise-Grip pliers or a very good bench vise and some other way to grip the flywheel.

    Hold the stub of the shaft that protrudes from the rear of the motor. Grab the flywheel with a big pair of Vise-Grips and turn clockwise. Remember the threads are LEFT handed. If it does not break free with just hand force you may need to use a soft face mallet and rap smartly on the Vise-Grip to 'break' the threads loose.

    Mike N

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    Default Re: Motor Choice for Taig Mill?

    Well, that was easy! I clamped the rear of the shaft in a bench vise and turned the flywheel off by hand. The motor is running CCW on my work bench right now with a 12V supply, lots of torque and only a little buzz from the brushes. I'm in the middle of several projects right now, so I can't spend too much time on this immediately. My goal is to strip out what I need from the treadmill and get rid of the carcass. Hope you don't mind a few stupid questions that will help me get this all together when the time comes.

    First, I don't think the MC1200-12 controller will do me much good. I'm skilled with electronics, but I don't have a component-level schematic for it. Also, I'd rather spend my hobby time milling. Do you think this MC-60-based "pre-fabbed" controller might be a good way to get started?

    MC-60 "Black Box" DC Super Motor Controller Ideal For Speed-For/Rev-Pause-Jog | eBay

    Also, I don't have the machinery to make a motor pulley with the necessary left-hand thread. Would it be reasonable to take the flywheel to a local machine shop and have it turned down? I only mill aluminum, so maximum spindle torque isn't a necessity. I'd like to get rid of the entire flywheel if possible, so only the belt drive surface is left.

    Finally, is anyone having a problem with the weight of these motors on a Taig mill? I don't know how they compare to the original AC motor. I bought my mill from Taig "CNC ready," and I'm not sure my Z-axis stepper will handle anything heavier than the stock motor.

    Jack



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    Default Re: Motor Choice for Taig Mill?

    Well that's great news that you were able to get the flywheel off easy.

    As for a pulley, I'd make a pulley that slipped over the 17MM shaft of the motor and allows you to put a left hand threaded nut on the thing to retain the pulley. I've done that a couple of times. Also beware, if you were to make a threaded on pulley and run it CCW you are risking the pulley spinning off.

    Now about the controller... I am currently working on a PWM driver that simply plugs into the 2100 series controller giving you variable speed. Got the last of the parts I needed in the mail yesterday. I expect the final product to be around $30 plus postage.

    Now finding an MC-60 or a Minarik controller would be easier for now. Unless you can wait for my prototype driver to be assembled and tested. That pre-fab MC-60 is a nice looking ready to use alternative too but seems spendy (I'm a cheap so-n-so).

    As to weight... I used to have a Taig mill and my memory of the motor thinks they are about the same weight. Since most motors are made about the same you should be able to get an idea of weight by comparing the size relative to each other. You'd also be surprised how strong stepper motors can be. If you are concerned about the weight a call to the nice folks at Taig may be a good idea.

    Mike N

    No good deed goes unpunished.


  7. #27
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    Default Re: Motor Choice for Taig Mill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twmaster View Post
    Well that's great news that you were able to get the flywheel off easy.

    As for a pulley, I'd make a pulley that slipped over the 17MM shaft of the motor and allows you to put a left hand threaded nut on the thing to retain the pulley. I've done that a couple of times. Also beware, if you were to make a threaded on pulley and run it CCW you are risking the pulley spinning off.
    You're right, I wasn't thinking about the direction change. Even with a slip-on pulley, I think I'd want two nuts locked together. Or maybe machine the pulley with a neck that could be pinned to the shaft. I need to give this more thought.

    Now about the controller... I am currently working on a PWM driver that simply plugs into the 2100 series controller giving you variable speed. Got the last of the parts I needed in the mail yesterday. I expect the final product to be around $30 plus postage.

    Now finding an MC-60 or a Minarik controller would be easier for now. Unless you can wait for my prototype driver to be assembled and tested. That pre-fab MC-60 is a nice looking ready to use alternative too but seems spendy (I'm a cheap so-n-so).
    I'm not in a hurry, but my controller is a MC1200-12, not a 2100. Is that a different series? You know, I've been looking at the MC-60 schematic online, and there's one thing I don't understand. These controllers don't seem to be doing anything special for our purpose, such as tach feedback. Why aren't people just using a triac-based motor speed control (like the ones made for routers) to drive a 30A bridge rectifier? Is there a feature in the controller boards that I'm overlooking?

    EDIT: Spent more time on the MC-60 schematic, and I see now that it includes motor current monitoring going back to the speed control circuitry and also to an area that I believe provides current limiting. So, there's some degree of speed compensation as the loading on the motor changes. It's not clear to me how important that would be for this work, but not a bad feature to have.

    Jack

    Last edited by noisillator; 11-28-2016 at 04:07 PM.


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    Default Re: Motor Choice for Taig Mill?

    Sorry, don't mean to bogart this thread. I was looking at an old ad for a router speed control this evening, and it listed the following feature:

    "Electronic feed-back maintains speed by increasing voltage to motor as load increases."

    Now that I think about, I'm almost sure all the popular triac-based circuits do the same thing. I'll try driving this motor with a router controller and bridge rectifier within the next few days. If that works the way I think it will, there might not be a need to recycle a treadmill controller for this purpose.

    Jack



  9. #29
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    Default Re: Motor Choice for Taig Mill?

    Sorry for my delayed reply. Busy with work.

    I'm a bit dyslexic and misread your post about the controller. If you still have the top or bottom cover(s) to the treadmill there should be a plastic pack with a folded over sheet of paper stuck to the inside. That may have the wiring diagram for the 1200 controller. If so I'd appreciate a good scan or clear photo of the page. The PWM driver I am working on may be adaptable to that controller too.

    I'd be interested in the router controller's function. Just be aware that you'll need to account for the current draw on that motor. Considering it says something like 1.65 HP # 95 VDC. That's about 1300W and 13Amps.

    Mike N

    No good deed goes unpunished.


  10. #30
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    Default Re: Motor Choice for Taig Mill?

    Mike, my testing of this motor is limited to no-load spinning on the workbench. I don't have a mounting plate, pulleys or belt yet to use it on the mill. Nevertheless, I've been able to perform a somewhat non-scientific comparison that points to the router controller as almost certainly being satisfactory for this use.

    Earlier in the week, I powered the motor from a 12V bench supply. The supply is highly regulated, so the output voltage doesn't change over load. During that test, I was able to easily slow the motor just by grabbing the output shaft. I couldn't quite stop it, but there was at least a 50% reduction. Using the router controller, I'm not able to slow the motor at all, at least not to any extent that I can detect. It has much more torque than with the fixed voltage supply, enough to really hurt me, even at low speed. Based on this, I believe the electronic load control built into the controller is not only working well, but that the bridge rectifier between the controller and the motor is completely transparent in terms of controlling speed.

    At this point, I'm pretty much done with the experiment. The next step will be to mount the motor, identify which belt to use and machine new pulleys. Then I should be ready to make some chips. I'll probably move over to a Taig-specific forum to see how others have handled the details of mounting a DC motor to this mill.



  11. #31
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    Default Re: Motor Choice for Taig Mill?

    Sounds like you are good-to-go. I'd still be interested in seeing that page from inside the treadmill if possible.

    Thanks.

    Mike N

    No good deed goes unpunished.


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    Default Re: Motor Choice for Taig Mill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twmaster View Post
    Sounds like you are good-to-go. I'd still be interested in seeing that page from inside the treadmill if possible.

    Thanks.
    Sorry, I forgot to mention it, the sheet only has a block diagram of the treadmill wiring. The control board is shown as an empty square with connector designators. I don't think that's what you need, but I'll be glad to copy it if you want. One thing interesting, the MC1200-12 does use the same diodes and SCRs in the rectifier/output section as the MC-60. They seem to like that circuit.

    Jack



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    Default Re: Motor Choice for Taig Mill?

    Yes it looks like the 1200 is nothing more than a modified MC60 with a PWM input rather than analog.

    Yes, I'd appreciate a photo or scan of the document. Also if you would take a clear photo of the controller with the wiring harnesses connected. Specifically the big harness that goes to the control panel. The color wires may lead me to being able to hack a PWM driver for that board too.

    Thank you.

    Mike N

    No good deed goes unpunished.


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    Default Re: Motor Choice for Taig Mill?

    No problem, I'll do that over the weekend. Should I post them here, or do you want a PM or email?



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    Default Re: Motor Choice for Taig Mill?

    Whatever is easiest for you. And, thank you.

    Mike N

    No good deed goes unpunished.


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    Default Re: Motor Choice for Taig Mill?

    OK, here are scans of the sheet and shots of the controller. Wire color codes are listed on the voltage diagram. Let me know if you need anything else.

    Motor Choice for Taig Mill?-page-1-jpg

    Motor Choice for Taig Mill?-page-2-jpg

    Motor Choice for Taig Mill?-img_0099-jpg

    Motor Choice for Taig Mill?-img_0102-jpg

    Motor Choice for Taig Mill?-img_0106-jpg

    Motor Choice for Taig Mill?-img_0104-jpg



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    Default Re: Motor Choice for Taig Mill?

    Just wanted to add something to all this. I was thinking about the MC-60 "black box" sold on eBay, as well as the work you're doing with these. I hope everyone is aware of the legal liability attached to something like this. There's a significant safety issue regarding the fact that the output of the controllers isn't isolated from the AC mains. The original device was totally enclosed and grounded. Converting this to a product with a barrier strip output - as in the case of the eBay product - creates a hazard. Anyone who is hurt or electrocuted through use of one of these systems probably has a slam-dunk case in court.



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Motor Choice for Taig Mill?

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