New Taig 2019CR-ER - tramming/setup question

[LaserImage]

I just bought a mill and have been getting it all setup. I have the steppers mounted, wired and everything is moving as it should. The problem is getting it trammed properly. I started with a machinist square and aligned the Z column perpendicular to the X axis. Then I attached a test indicator to the headstock and moved it up and down and fine tuned the alignment to almost perfection! Moving up and down a 123 block the needle barely moves - it's a .0005 resolution dti so I think I'm within .0001 of being dead on.
Before I attached the spindle and started tramming it I wanted to ensure the Z column was perpendicular to the Y axis. It turns out that over about 2-1/2" of travel on the 123 block it's just over .002 out of perpendicular, it leans forward. I know I can shim between the dovetail and the column to get the spindle perpendicular to the table, but the column will still be off.

This means that the bottom of a slot cut along the X axis will be close to the Z column than the top, right?

Is there any way to adjust the perpendicularity of the Z column to the Y axis?

Should I not worry about it?

I have an email in to Nick Carter, he's who I bought it from, but I thought I'd post here tonight and see if I get a reply here first - I know Nick actually has a life and probably won't be checking email at 9:30 on a Saturday night...

Thanks for any help!

Gary

Here is a link to a video of the Y/X - http://www.nwlaserimage.com/taig/01.avi

and here is the Y/Z - http://www.nwlaserimage.com/taig/02.avi

I also attached a closeup of the dti at the bottom of the 123 block testing the Y/X axis.

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[cameraguy]

Before I attached the spindle and started tramming it I wanted to ensure the Z column was perpendicular to the Y axis. It turns out that over about 2-1/2" of travel on the 123 block it's just over .002 out of perpendicular, it leans forward. I know I can shim between the dovetail and the column to get the spindle perpendicular to the table, but the column will still be off.

This means that the bottom of a slot cut along the X axis will be close to the Z column than the top, right?

That's a good point. I have wondered about that myself, as one of my machines is off in exactly the same way, though not by quite the same amount, as it takes a little over 4" of travel for mine to be .002 out.

I would not shim between the dovetail and the moving Z axis head unit to gain perpendicularity, though. As you point out, that would only true the head to the table and not the travel. So go lower.
If I were you, I would shim between the flat steel ways and the square column itself (the ways are just bolted on with cap screws). If you did it there, you would take care of both the head alignment -and- be totally perpendicular over the entire range of travel.

This is just my two cents on what might work. It clearly should work, but I haven't done it on mine, as to be honest, I have never worried about it that much. While it does follow that the mill would indeed be pulled back toward the column the further Z travels down, considering a .5" deep slot cut on mine will only be off by a couple of tenths it never appealed to me to chase down that particular gremlin. Yours is quite a bit worse off than mine is though, so while I left mine alone, a remedy might make more sense in your case.

Good luck and let us know how it works out!

[LaserImage]

Thanks for the reply cameraguy. You are right that it's not going to have much of an affect on the materials I will likely be milling, maybe I won't worry about it. Since it is off .002 over 2.5" then simple math tells me it's going to be off .0002 over .25" travel (.25=1/10th the travel so the same 1/10th of the error is .0002). Maybe I should live with that.

As for shimming the ways - If I shimmed the bottom, would they flex enough that there would be a slight curve over part of the length or are they stiff enough that they will remain straight? I may be over-thinking it but wouldn't I technically need a shim that tapers from 0" to whatever distance the bottom should be?

Thanks,
Gary

[Jeff-Birt]

The first things I would check in a case like this is flip the 123 block over and test again. That helps to eliminate the problem being in the block. The difference your seeing, 0.002" over 2.5" amounts to a spec of dirt or nick on the block. The next thing to double check would be the the mating surfaces of the Z-column and machine base. Make sure both are clean and shiny.

[LaserImage]

Thanks for the reply Jeff. After my post I went back at it and did exactly what you suggested - flip the 123 block. I have a "matched" pair and they are not quite perfect and not very well matched... The error varied from less than .0005 to .002 between all of the edges of the two blocks.

After installing the spindle and tramming the table, it's less than .001 in any direction - along the X I measured out at 12" using an extension bar, along the Y I had the dti mounted in the spindle. Just to eliminate the error between the blocks, I used the same place on the same block to check all four points.

I'm going to live with that. Time to get to work making something... a sacrificial plate first, then I'll make something.

Thanks,
Gary

[B-RAD]

I have the same issue only I haven't measured mine exactly. When putting a Dial Test Indicator in the spindle and rotating it my needle is withen .0005" parallel to the X, but if I spin it so the indicator measures the front of the table vs one point from the previous points my needle moves A LOT... It's only 2" away. So I pulled back on my Z column and and tried it again, this time the needle moves less, so this is telling me that the motor is just to heavy, and over time its causing the head to nod forward. The whole Z column acts like its a bendy straw, lol.


I'm going to have to build a brace, like on my SX2, only I won't go up the column, I'll just make a push pull plate on the bottom to tram the Z in the Y direction.

[desktoplathes]

I have the same issue only I haven't measured mine exactly. When putting a Dial Test Indicator in the spindle and rotating it my needle is withen .0005" parallel to the X, but if I spin it so the indicator measures the front of the table vs one point from the previous points my needle moves A LOT... It's only 2" away. So I pulled back on my Z column and and tried it again, this time the needle moves less, so this is telling me that the motor is just to heavy, and over time its causing the head to nod forward. The whole Z column acts like its a bendy straw, lol.


I'm going to have to build a brace, like on my SX2, only I won't go up the column, I'll just make a push pull plate on the bottom to tram the Z in the Y direction.

B-RAD - Have you adjusted your Z slide gibs and plates? There is a good video from Taig on how to set these up below. Reducing the play in these will prevent your spindle from moving when pulling back on the assembly as you describe. Also, you may need to shim the dovetail plate that your spindle mounts to in order to align the spindle perpendicular to your Y axis. Note that when you do shim the plate, you will need to realign the plate to the X axis as well, since there is room for it to rotate a little before tightening down. -Keith

"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFF3w5wo6Ig"]video.

[B-RAD]

I'm adjusted, the problem is the column itself. Shiming the spindle or anything will not fix the issue in the whole Z travel, only a small percentage of it. The problem is only magnified as you go up in the Z. I need to shim or physically put stress on the column to fix the issue, if I shim it then there will be less surface area where the column and the base meet and will go out of tram a lot easier, so I'm not doing that idea.

[BAMCNC.COM]

Anyone figured this out yet, how to properly and accurately fix the nod issue with the column without any drastic modifications?

My gears are turning, but I always end up doing something else instead of focusing on this problem.

[LaserImage]

Anyone figured this out yet, how to properly and accurately fix the nod issue with the column without any drastic modifications?

My gears are turning, but I always end up doing something else instead of focusing on this problem.

If you can figure out how to get the metal tubes to stop bending then the problem will be solved. I don't know if that would involved gussets outside or something inside the tubes to eliminate, or reduce, the flex. Would cement and/or epoxy poured inside the tubes make any difference?

Gary

[BAMCNC.COM]

Well I accomplished it today, well good enough anyways.




Perfect would of been 4 thicknesses of aluminum foil, I have 3, because I was to busy doing this...



I'm very happy with my Taig now, I tore it all apart and adjusted everything, 6 hours into it today, but it was worth it.

And to answer your question, the Z axis weight is a constant more or less, the flexing your talking about is something that will always be, but when not cutting we want it as perfect as can be, such as I have done, I'm now .0015" out of tram on the Y axis, I'm .0002" on the X axis, I was so happy with that I tack welded my column to my base. I was done messing with it.. you can only be so anal... Lol

[fretsman]

Well I accomplished it today, well good enough anyways.




Perfect would of been 4 thicknesses of aluminum foil, I have 3, because I was to busy doing this...



I'm very happy with my Taig now, I tore it all apart and adjusted everything, 6 hours into it today, but it was worth it.

And to answer your question, the Z axis weight is a constant more or less, the flexing your talking about is something that will always be, but when not cutting we want it as perfect as can be, such as I have done, I'm now .0015" out of tram on the Y axis, I'm .0002" on the X axis, I was so happy with that I tack welded my column to my base. I was done messing with it.. you can only be so anal... Lol

Interesting, Brad, good to see you get this sorted for yourself.

Dave

[BAMCNC.COM]

Thanks!

I know Taig measures everything in the factory, but only in pieces, and not the completed mill. That's what I gather from the videos anyways.

[toddferrante]

I spent some time Sunday morning squaring my axes to each other. I'm kicking myself now for not taking pictures. The sequence of steps follows:

1) Square Z axis to Y axis. This is checked by fixing a 1-2-3 block to the table, using threaded rod to a T-nut. I attached my indicator to the headstock, started with the Z in it's lowest position, and swept the block from bottom to top. Then I moved the indicator to the bottom of the block and continued raising the Z to the top of travel. This showed about .004" total out of square over the total travel range. I then loosened the 9 (if memory serves) #10 socket head cap screws that hold the Z ways to the Z column. I took .004", .003", and .002" thick shims and slid them between the ways and the column, between the SHCSs. Then tightened all the screws and rechecked. This resulted in the sweep from bottom to top of travel staying within .001". (The actual process took much longer, as I first started with just a .004" shim at the bottom. This caused a "bow" in the Z axis when the screws were tightened. The different thicknesses of shims were necessary to get the axis reasonably straight when all the screws were tightened.)

2) Square the Z axis to the X axis. Rotate the 1-2-3 block, and sweep the vertical face. Loosen the column nut and tap the column back and forth to get the column parallel to the face of the block. Retighten the nut and do a final check for squareness. This adjustment is easy compared to the shimming step above. (If you are going to fix the Z-Y alignment, do the shimming before fixing the Z-X alignment. Loosening and tightening the SHCSs holding the Z ways to the column will mess up the Z-X alignment. Ask me how I know...)

3) Square the spindle to the X-Y plane. This done by shimming and squaring the dovetail plate. You can check the squareness by attaching your indicator to the table, and putting a long dowel pin in the spindle collet. Then run the Z axis up and down while sweeping the dowel. When adjusting the dovetail plate, you can sweep the plate itself, but the measurement that actually matters is sweeping the dowel. Getting the dowel to sweep true indicates that your cutters will be true. Even if the dovetail plate is perfect, the headstock may not be, and that will throw the cutter out of true. The other way to measure this is by chucking the indicator in the spindle and rotating the spindle, sweeping the table.

The final result you are looking for is that an indicator fixed to the head runs true on both sides of a block fixed to the table. This tells you the Z axis is normal to the X-Y plane. Then, an indicator fixed to the table should run true on a dowel (simulating a cutter) held in the spindle. (Or an indicator held in the spindle should run true on the table.) This tells you that your tool rotational axis is parallel to the Z axis. Both of these adjustments must be made, in that order, to fully tram your machine.

Todd F.

[BAMCNC.COM]

Pictures/video is always good

[MT_Pockets]

I hate to bring up such and old thread but I've recently run into the issues mentioned here. It seems that my spindle is not parallel to the Z-axis which I'm working on fixing (and is a huge pain) and the Z-axis itself isn't entirely perpendicular to the table. Has anyone come up with a good method to fix this yet other than shimming the joint between the column and base?

[phoglite]

It's a trick but you can square up the dovetail plate by running z up and down and with a test indicator mounted on the table and indicating on the dovetail angled surface. Shim the dovetail plate first though (if required) by performing a similar operation indicating on the flat face. As for whether or not the z column provides a perpendicular axis to the table, the old question of how close does it need to be has to be asked. You will never be perfect if you look close enough. I don't think anyone shims the column itself. But be sure to scrub it down with a green scratch pad to ensure it isn't being shimmed unintentionally. The way I would measure this is to mount the test indicator on the spindle and run it up and down indicating off of a 123 block that is bolted to the table standing tall. You can check for team in one orientation and for column squareness in the other.

I hate to bring up such and old thread but I've recently run into the issues mentioned here. It seems that my spindle is not parallel to the Z-axis which I'm working on fixing (and is a huge pain) and the Z-axis itself isn't entirely perpendicular to the table. Has anyone come up with a good method to fix this yet other than shimming the joint between the column and base?

[Eldon_Joh]

if you really need to shim the column, i would shim the y axis extrusion instead. the 10 screws that hold it down are overkill. one shim at either end, half the thickness of the shim in the middle and use 6 of the bolts. or just two bolts on both ends. it might be 8 bolts holding it down, i can't recall.


if you really need to shim the dovetail plate, then i would scrape it or file it instead to get a stiffer mounting surface.

better yet, build a new column from 4 inch square steel or thicker.