G540 COMPARED TO OTHER DRIVES

[Crevice Reamer]

I have posted this before and repeat it here:

Originally Posted by Crevice Reamer WHY A G540 STEPPER DRIVER IS A GREAT VALUE: Some say, "Wow that's expensive! Let's look at what a G540 is: The G540 electronics combine with the tiny G250 drives to make them unkillable, and equivalent to four lower Voltage/Amperage G203Vs. The G250 alone is not nearly as good. http://geckodrive.com/product.aspx?c=3&i=14469 VALUE: $600: Four junior unkillable "G203Vs" with built in microstep to full speed morphing, mid range resonance dampening, idle current limiting. $185: Optoisolated 4 axis breakout board with charge pump, spindle speed control, limits, homes, I/O connections, built in logic power supply, and supplied motor connectors. $200: Worth of time and aggravation wiring up and troubleshooting myriad connections that are already DONE internally with G540. Priceless: All this in a tiny package that just requires connection to 2 power supply wires, up to 4 motor cables and one computer parallel cable and it's up and running. ----- $985+ Total value for only $300. The only downside is that you need to expend the effort to choose your motors for best power within (Or as close as possible to) the 3.5A, 50V G540 envelope, but the Keling 381 and 906 motors match up very well. Of course, you can do what MANY do and go for a $50 to $100 cheaper solution that may either prove unreliable or turn out to be unsuitable and need to be replaced after awhile--That may NOT be a money saving choice.

But ARE the other choices less expensive? Let's look at the ACTUAL total price of some other drivers, if they try to match G540 capabilities:

G540
$249 G540 with built-in sophisticated BOB, VFD, Logic PSU, Charge pump, high-speed morphing, mid band resonance dampning, Idle current limiting, Gecko effectively lifetime warranty. (Because if it is at all repairable, Gecko will fix it for free--Even if you broke it--and even long after the one year official warranty expires)
$008 Two 48V relays
-------
$257

http://geckodrive.com/product.aspx?c=3&i=14469

G203V
$533 G203V (4) The only REAL equal to G540 safety and performance, but at a much higher price. These drives are actually SUPERIOR to G540, because they can handle 7A and 80V, but at 3.5A and 50V the G540 and G203V would both provide the same performance. Gecko de facto lifetime warranty.
$109 C11G BOB with optoisolation,VFD, 2 relays.
$030 CNC4pc A20 PSU for BOB
$020 Motor connectors.
-------
$692

http://geckodrive.com/product.aspx?c=3&i=14460

G251
$196 G251 (4) Has many of G540 features, but missing some "unkillable safety options. Gecko de facto lifetime warranty.
$129 Equivalent sophisticated BOB.
$030 CNC4pc A20 PSU for BOB
$020 Connectors
-------
$375

http://geckodrive.com/product.aspx?c=3&i=14471

KELING 4030
$220 Keling 4030 drivers (4) Max Amps=3. Effective Voltage max=36. NO high speed morphing. NO mid-band resonance dampning. Keling drivers have a one year warranty, and enjoy a good reputation for reliability.
$129 Sophisticated BOB
$030 CNC4pc A20 PSU for BOB
$020 Motor connectors
-------
$399

http://kelinginc.net/KLDriver.html

EL CHEAPO option:
$220 Keling 4030 drivers (4)
$028 Simple breakout board with no optoisolation protection for your computer. NO safety charge pump to prevent dangerous surprise machine movement.
$037 CNC4pc C6 VFD card.
$018 C15 Relay card
$030 CNC4pc A20 PSU for BOB
$020 Motor connectors
-------
$353 With this option, compared to G540, you will have sacrificed some performance and safety--But saved NO money.

LESS POWERFUL DRIVE OPTIONS:

PROBOTIX:
$144 Four Bipolar Sidestep drivers
No full step morphing, no mid range resonance dampning, no Idle current limiting or recirculation. Amps= 2.5 max. Voltage= effectively 24V Max. Probotix drivers come with only a 90 day warranty. If the damage is deemed "your fault," there IS no warranty.
$129 Sophisticated BOB with charge pump, optoisolation, output relays, VFD.
$030 Logic PSU
-------
$303

http://probotix.com/

A word about Probotix motors.

These are ill-suited for 2.5A and 24V. They detune as follows:
The 3A 260 detunes to 216 oz on 2.5A. It's a 60V motor, so will run slower at 24V.
The 4.2A 280 detunes to only 166oz on 2.5A. It is a 48V motor, so will run faster than the other two on 24V, but still fairly slow.
The 4.2A 400 (Green monster indeed!) detunes to only 238 oz on 2.5A. It is a 62V motor, so will run slowest of the three.

XYLOTEX:
$185 Four axis drive board.
No full step morphing, no mid range resonance dampning, no Idle current limiting or recirculation. Amps= 2.5 max. Voltage= effectively 24V Max. Xylotex drivers come with only a 90 day warranty. If the damage is deemed "your fault," there IS no warranty. They have been known to easily lose their magic smoke. The Xylotex board IS a BOB, albeit a simple one without optoisolation. You CAN add a charge pump, VFD card and relay card though.
$027 C4 charge pump card
$038 C6 VFD card.
$018 C15 relay card
-------
$268

http://xylotex.com/

This board is available in a turn-key configuration that includes electronics box and motor cables, so it is a very popular choice for newbies. Unfortunately many will have wasted their money and have to spend MORE to replace it.

A word about Xylotex motors:
The 2.8A 61V 269 oz is essentially similar to the Keling 270. It will detune to only 241 oz at 2.5A, so is fairly low power and speed--although it WILL run faster than the 425.

The 2.5A 91V 425 is a poor choice for this drive. It WILL provide the rated 425 oz of HOLDING torque, but is seriously undervolted at 24V, so won't run very fast.

The following drive-card is a very low-cost option and you have to build it yourself.

HOBBY CNC PRO 4 AXIS:

$99 with 4 drives. Max Amps=3. Max Voltage= 36. This is a UNIPOLAR drive, so is only capable of producing about 2/3 of a stepper motor's torque. No full step morphing, no mid range resonance dampning. It IS a basic BOB, and has its own logic PSU, but it is very limited and has no outputs for relays or VFD. It has no charge pump and no provision to add one. You can add limit/home switches and that's all. In order to get even a FRACTION of the G540 capability, you would have to add the following:
$020 A25 2nd parallel port card
$028 C-10 BOB
$018 C15 Relay card
$038 C6 VFD
$030 Logic PSU
-------
$205

http://www.hobbycnc.com/

Lowest cost of this bunch, but fairly low performance and you STILL have to build it yourself. If you do it properly though, It WILL function and it enjoys a good reputation. I couldn't find any warranty information, but there IS a 20% restocking fee for a return.

A word about Hobby CNC motors. They are 8 wire motors but must be wired as 6 wire motors for unipolar operation.
The 46V, 2.1A, 185 will only provide 130 oz as unipolar.
The 47V, 3A, 285 will only provide 205 oz as unipolar.
The 57V, 3A, 425 will only provide 305 oz as unipolar.

MARDUS-KREUTZ:

Now if you have the skills, and want to REALLY build your own from scratch, THIS is one heck of a drive:
http://mardus-kreutz.blogspot.com/20...o-stepper.html

I choose the G540 for its AWESOME performance, safety, reliability, warranty and installation ease. The 3.5A, 50V, G540 can efficiently run up to a (S)X3 mill, (and surely also a G0704) when paired with Keling 381s, (and a Keling 906 for heavy heads like X3 or G0704) and almost ANY router. Professional quality and performance at hobby prices--What's not to like?

IMO, if the BEST equipment costs less or only a little more--Why not use the best?

CR.

[wendtmk]

One minor correction though, on the Keling 4030's. I've got the 3 axis package, and the C10 BOB for $28 is what came with it, not the C11 board for $129.

Mark

[Crevice Reamer]

Originally Posted by wendtmk One minor correction though, on the Keling 4030's. I've got the 3 axis package, and the C10 BOB for $28 is what came with it, not the C11 board for $129. Mark

Hi Mark. No correction needed. It's not about "packages." The point is, in order to compare to the G540s BOB features--You would have to buy the more expensive BOB, or buy a bunch of add-on cards--And you can't just add a card to get optoisolation computer protection.

CR.

[hoss2006]

Originally Posted by wendtmk One minor correction though, on the Keling 4030's. I've got the 3 axis package, and the C10 BOB for $28 is what came with it, not the C11 board for $129. Mark

It's not about what you can get to run your mill effectively and economically, it's about how
crevice reamer skews the data to make the g540 seem even better than it is.
It is good but thousands of other folks are running those other drivers with no problems what so ever.
it's just marketing to make you new guys think everything else is doomed to fail.
simply not the case.
look for equipment for your machines with an open mind not one persons biased closed minded opinions.
Hoss

[MrWild]

It isn't exactly skewed... Because the G540 has the nice BOB with all the functions of a C11, CR includes the EXPENSIVE C11 in his comparisons. Do you need a C11 BOB? No. If you go with something that will work, all of CRs figures go down the tubes. Many of us say, "Ohhh, we want a 4th axis." but may not use it or need it for a year or two if even then. If you look at the savings of a 3 axis set up with C10 BOB, and lower cost power supply, CR's figures are VERY skewed.

All that said, there is a lot going for mid band resonance damping and step morphing. Add in the pain free joy of no BOB wiring hassles, on board charge pump, and relays for your spindle and coolant/vac, plus the PWM ability for spindle speed control, and the G540 is an amazing unit and worth saving pennies for if you have the extra coin. My X2 build is using another member's failed attempts which include a Probotix set up. On the shelf are three G251s and a C10. After I smoke the Probotix setup or get tired of mid band resonance and lack of step morphing, I'll upgrade to the G251s.

My JGRO has a G540 and it sings. I might even change the X2 bits for the JGRO bits. Need to finish the X2 first to see how the Probotix works for an unbiased assessment. At least by actually using the gear I'll have a real opinion and not salesmanship.

You don't need 4 drives when three will do. You don't need a bells and whistles BOB when a C10 will do. I would steer clear of the chines 65~~ drives though. Lastly the G540 is American made but so are a few of the others.

[Crevice Reamer]

Originally Posted by hoss2006 It's not about what you can get to run your mill effectively and economically, it's about how crevice reamer skews the data to make the g540 seem even better than it is. It is good but thousands of other folks are running those other drivers with no problems what so ever. it's just marketing to make you new guys think everything else is doomed to fail. simply not the case. look for equipment for your machines with an open mind not one persons biased closed minded opinions. Hoss

"Marketing?" I have no connection with Gecko--Other than knowing good equipment when I use it.

Even if you ignore the cost of bringing the other drives up to spec, they still save very little, if any over the G540 price. For example: If you buy 4 of the K4030s for $220 and add the $28 C10 BOB, (You MUST have a BOB) then you have saved a whopping $2 and gotten MUCH less value for the money.

I wrote this post so new buyers could have a way of comparing the real value between the drives BEFORE buying. If you can buy the best for the same or just a little more money, than you should have the opportunity to know about it.

I can honestly say, I have not seen anyone here post that they were sorry to have bought the American made G540. But I HAVE seen many posts lamenting buying some of the other drives.

Hoss is apparently so adamantly opposed to the G540 and Gecko that he sees things that just aren't there. NO data is skewed in this post. Facts are facts. Just follow the links and the facts are there to be found. Nowhere in the post does it say anything about drives doomed to fail.

So examine the facts and judge for yourselves. As Hoss says: "look for equipment for your machines with an open mind not one persons biased closed minded opinions."

CR.

[Crevice Reamer]

Originally Posted by MrWild It isn't exactly skewed... Because the G540 has the nice BOB with all the functions of a C11, CR includes the EXPENSIVE C11 in his comparisons. Do you need a C11 BOB? No. If you go with something that will work, all of CRs figures go down the tubes. Many of us say, "Ohhh, we want a 4th axis." but may not use it or need it for a year or two if even then. If you look at the savings of a 3 axis set up with C10 BOB, and lower cost power supply, CR's figures are VERY skewed.

The G540 uses the same 7.3A 48V PSU whether it is running 3 drives or all 4. Sure, You can use 3 G251s and a C10. That will save you $72. Do you really NEED optoisolation? Not until one of your motors sends a Voltage spike back to your computer and fries it. Then how much have you saved?

Do you NEED a charge pump? Not until you turn on the computer and things start running dangerously wild.

Do you NEED unkillability? Not until you wire a driver backwards or a motor cable breaks and fries your drive. Replacing that drive (Or the whole board) may negate any previous savings.

All that said, there is a lot going for mid band resonance damping and step morphing. Add in the pain free joy of no BOB wiring hassles, on board charge pump, and relays for your spindle and coolant/vac, plus the PWM ability for spindle speed control, and the G540 is an amazing unit and worth saving pennies for if you have the extra coin. My X2 build is using another member's failed attempts which include a Probotix set up. On the shelf are three G251s and a C10. After I smoke the Probotix setup or get tired of mid band resonance and lack of step morphing, I'll upgrade to the G251s. My JGRO has a G540 and it sings.

Another happy G540 owner reports. I rest my case.

I might even change the X2 bits for the JGRO bits. Need to finish the X2 first to see how the Probotix works for an unbiased assessment. At least by actually using the gear I'll have a real opinion and not salesmanship.

"Salesmanship?" Again, I have no connection with Gecko except knowing what works well for me. As for my opinions of other drives, they are based on countless posted reports of problems that others have had. Who needs troubles?

You don't need 4 drives when three will do.

If it costs almost the same and you also get so many other valuable features, Why not?

You don't need a bells and whistles BOB when a C10 will do.

Not until the LACK of those "bells and whistles" costs you money. See above.

I would steer clear of the chines 65~~ drives though.

Good advice!

CR.

[MrWild]

Originally Posted by Crevice Reamer "Marketing?" I have no connection with Gecko--Other than knowing good equipment when I use it. I can honestly say, I have not seen anyone here post that they were sorry to have bought the American made G540. But I HAVE seen many posts lamenting buying some of the other drives. Hoss is apparently so adamantly opposed to the G540 and Gecko that he sees things that just aren't there. NO data is skewed in this post. Facts are facts. Just follow the links and the facts are there to be found. Nowhere in the post does it say anything about drives doomed to fail. So examine the facts and judge for yourselves. As Hoss says: "look for equipment for your machines with an open mind not one persons biased closed minded opinions." CR.

1. You are biased. (not always a bad thing but... )

2. Blanket statements. I've seen many posts lamenting buying the 65~~ and 84~~ boards, but not the Keiling drives. Granted you used the expression "some other boards" but considering that you included a treasure trove of examples, the expression seems to include all of them. Even the 65~~ boards are okay when used in their niche and are a steal for someone with few funds.

3. You have made posts alluding that other drives will fail and Hoss called you on that too. Might not have in this post, but not without guilt. I believe that was the first time Hoss wigged on you too.

4. Exactly. We might all want the Porsche, but can get downtown with a Chevy.

[hoss2006]

I'm not opposed to Gecko and the G540, that's why they are among the recommendations
that I give out on this forum and my website.
I said among the recommendations because I give out several choices to to best match the
users performance wishes and pocketbook.
I'm not biased towards one or the other like you are, I understand that cost is a limiting factor to some people
and don't try to coerse someone into spending money for things they may never need.
Skew Ex. $20 for motor connectors? I spent $1.50 for the same thing.
marketing, I've seen the pic you once posted of the (4) new g540's gecko sent you,
not something you would expect someone to be able to afford looking at your builds.
Facts, I've read the posts from some folks that managed to actually kill the unkillable and
gecko like other driver manufactures do as well did replace it.
I've read the complaints about the g540 spindle control not working for some and frying their board.
You don't come right out and say the other boards are doomed but you sure do imply it hard.
Xylotex is the only board that has no protection, the kl4030 does and i've proven it a few times with NO problems in 3 years.
Careful, your bias is close to prejudice.
Hoss

[MrWild]

Originally Posted by Crevice Reamer Do you NEED a charge pump? Not until you turn on the computer and things start running dangerously wild. Do you NEED unkillability? Not until you wire a driver backwards or a motor cable breaks and fries your drive. Replacing that drive (Or the whole board) may negate any previous savings. CR.

I don't need a charge pump. I use EMC2. It doesn't do the Windows wonk. EMC2 does have charge pump capability though for the belts and suspenders folks.

No argument there. I'm thumbs and elbows sometimes and this is a valid point. I had a cable break at a splice. It caused an intermittent failure. The G540 soaked it up and kept working until I found the problem. I wouldn't pay 299 (cuz I'm cheap and don't really need it), I might not pay 250 (still cheap). If another sale hits at 225, I am there (Just because that is a heck of a bargain and I'd swap out the Probotix without a thought).

[Crevice Reamer]

Five dollars each is a reasonable price for DB9 connectors & shells bought at local Radio Shack.
http://www.newark.com/d-subminiature?isRedirect=true

They CAN be had cheaper, but are not always as good.

I had big plans for those G540s when I ordered them,--life gets in the way sometimes-- but I'm slowly using up the last of them. This makes me a salesman for Gecko?

If I am biased and prejudiced because I know how to recognize excellent value, then so be it.

Okay. I tried to post a comparison based on apples to apples. Of course you can always save money by buying lesser products. Sometimes you don't REALLY save any money though.

Hoss, we have argued before, and it gets old. Especially when you start calling me names instead of only dealing with the facts. I'm tired of arguing now. The G540 can speak for itself quite well I think, and I've got better things to do than try to defend it to someone who has never experienced its value.

CR.

[hoss2006]

See it's just more of the same nonsense, implying that the more affordable DB9 connectors I used are inferior,
no basis in fact what so ever.
They've been in use on my mill that makes things for over 3 years.
And where did I call you a name? You really do just see things as you want to see them.
Your views are biased and there is no point in arguing about it anymore but I'll make sure that any newbies get the facts from me and know that they have other viable choices out there to meet their needs.
Hoss