How do I set the plunge method to "through drill point"

[saabaero]

I have been reading the manual (yes, you read correctly ) and it says "If, when the tool path is being created, the tool cannot approach an area from outside, then the system searches for an appropriate point in the holes list and if an an appropriate hole is found, then it will be used for a vertical tool plunge. If a suitable hole isn't found, then one will be created automatically and added to the holes list."

" For the fast creation of an operation that will provide preliminary drilling for tool plunging, it is necessary that when the hole machining operation is being created, the user select the pocketing or waterline roughing operation as the prototype. By doing this, all of the holes of the prototype operation will be copied to the newly created operation. And vice versa, to use the holes obtained for tool plunging, the operation can be defined as a prototype for the waterline or pocketing operations."

My first question is, how do I define one operation as a prototype for another? I see where I can set "parameters by operation" but that doesn't work and I don't think it is the same thing.

The second question is... In the manual it is discussed, that the hole list is used for these plunge operations by setting the plunge method to "through drill point" in the toolpath window. I have not been able to find that option anywhere! (I am using V 2007 build 5.5) I thought it would be under "parameters/lead in/lead out" but it's not. What am I missing????

[RTP_Burnsville]

Saabaero,

I think the prototype is defined by the order in which machining events are listed in the explorer style window on the left of your screen. For example if in the machine group you define two operations, lets call the first one in the list rough waterline and the second finish waterline. In this case the finish waterline process would use the result of the rough waterline process as the prototype into its process.

machining group
+ rough waterline
+ finish waterline

Robert

[RTP_Burnsville]

Well, the system looks to have lost my response to your second question so I will try again....

My take is that one needs to use the hole machining process to plunge the holes you have listed in the drill table. As for how to get the info into the drill table, one can directly edit the table values, or one can use the graphic editing tools which will place the values in the table for you.

If you drill the holes in one process and then mill with the next process you should be able to get what is needed. This would be a good example of your first question in having the results of one process feed into the next.

I think there is a post either someplace here or on the Sprutcam form discussing this in more detail.

Robert

[saabaero]

Hey, Thanks RTP_Burnsville for the replies!

Let me respond to them individually:

In the first reply, I was thinking along the same lines as you but on further investigation I realized that didn't seem to be the case because (for one) the manual says "For fast creation of an operation that will provide preliminary drilling for tool plunging, it is necessary that when the hole machining operation is being created, the user select the pocketing or waterline roughing operation as the prototype."

This kind of indicates that the user must manually select the milling operation (created first) as the prototype for the hole drilling operation (created secondly) despite the fact that the hole drilling needs to be performed prior to the milling. I tried creating the hole drilling just after the milling operation and then moving it in the tree to just prior to the milling operation and that didn't work either.

Also, one would expect that just as the workpiece information is passed from the previous operation into "Workpiece" sub-branch of the "Auxillary" branch so would the holes from previous operations be passed into the "Holes" sub-branch of the "Auxillary" branch. However it does not - it shows as being empty.

In addition, from what I read in the manual It seems like the hole drilling and milling operations should become interactive where hole information is passed to the milling operation and the milling operation can pass hole location information (if there isn't an existing hole where needed) to the hole machining operation. For the life of me, regardless of what I try I can't seem to get that to happen. (this relates to your 2nd reply)

The other thing that is strange is that I cannot find the "plunge through drill point" option anywhere. I would expect it to be under (Operation Parameters / Lead In/Lead Out / Plunge) for the milling operation.

I have kind of gotten this process to work by manually placing a circle in the "2D" tab over an area where a pocket would be, using that to drill a hole, and then the pocketing operation recoginizes that it has clearance in the hole area to plunge and uses it automatically. The only problem is there is no interaction as described in the manual (or help screen) and the holes aren't assigned automatically.

I will try to search around to see if there are any other relevent posts.

All I can say is that learning Sprutcam can be really challanging at times!

[saabaero]

Being that the responses to my question were so overwhelming let me ask the question another way... When I did a search on "plunge through drill point" I noticed on the UK Sprutcam forum that there was a bug with this option in earlier versions that was supposed to be fixed in 5.31 - was the fix to 'remove the option (or capability) completely'???????

[RTP_Burnsville]

Hi,

Yes, a challange is a good way to put it....

I found page 1-117 in the manual to be something worth keeping in mind when trying to decode the rest of the manual. In general it's as I mentioned earlier in that the current operation builds on info from the prior steps. The wording in the manual confuses this concept at times but if you remember this basic concept is behind the overall program then you can make sense of the words (well, most of the time).

FWIW, I found that if one reads the sentences backwards that some times the intent breaks through. I asked some of the Russian speaking folks here at work why that is and was told that in the Russian language the written order of things is not always like it is here in the states. A lot of English is written so that a noun does something, where in their language that is not the case. Once I understood that it made figuring out the manual much easier (ie don't place much faaith that the order of things is correct!).

I also looked at 5.2.3 mainly the first couple paragraphs and understand what I believe you are trying to do a bit better.

Your comment below is one way to get the job done but I believe you are trying to do the automatic mode as mentioned in 5.2.3.
<<
I have kind of gotten this process to work by manually placing a circle in the "2D" tab over an area where a pocket would be, using that to drill a hole, and then the pocketing operation recoginizes that it has clearance in the hole area to plunge and uses it automatically. The only problem is there is no interaction as described in the manual (or help screen) and the holes aren't assigned automatically.
>>

You are a little ahead of me in that I have not tried the waterline roughing command yet. However, it sounds to me like it first searches for a prior plunge hole and then if it can't find one which will work it will create one. I think that is what you want to do..... One other thing I picked up is that it sounds like it wants to use drill points to either locate the plunge or will create drill points to make the holes. I only mention this as you referenced drilling via a circle in a prior post. Hole machining can use drill points or circles as you likely already know.

If I can find some free minutes I'll try to look at the waterline operation and see if I can decode anything that may help now that I understand a little better what you are attempting to do. . Thanks for posting as you certainly have helped my progress.....

Robert

[saabaero]

Even though it doesn't appear so at first, there is a lot of information on that page (1-117) and I believe you are correct that it is the key to a lot of what else happens in the software.

The scary thing is that in situations like this where there are so few pages of documentation describing the use of such a complex application that so much hinges on each and every word. That is why I end up typically rereading the manual 5 and 6 times before I begin to really start to understand what is being presented. What makes this situation worse is that you cannot take the words for face value because of the language differences. That is one reason that these forums are so important since we can discuss problems using the same words and language.

The other thing that scares me is that since I cannot find the "plunge through drill point" option in the "Lead In/Lead Out" tab that they may have done away with that feature and I am wracking my brain for nothing.

The reason that I got the cutter to plunge into a previous hole I drilled is because in waterline and pocketing operations the system trys to plunge off the workpiece if possible. If the pocket is in a confined space it will look for an area where material was removed previously iin order to do the plunge. Hence why my drilling a hole in that spot previously worked. I'm sure it had nothing to do with the feature we are discussing.

Plunging the cutter (even with a center cutting tool) is always tedious and I have found that even in hole pocketing operations it is wise to drill a hole first. It would really be nice if the software would help make that task easier. After all that is why I am using CAM software in the first place.

[RTP_Burnsville]

Ha, too funny.... I have read the manual at least 20 times cover to cover!! The scary thing is that each time I pick it up something else pops out that I never remember reading before. How can that be??

I keep a red pencil with the manual to correct things once I do finally figure them out. It's a very powerful program but as you say, the language translation leaves much to the imagination.

I have the simple 2D things down pretty well as I have made about a dozen different parts. Most have been a series of different holes and bores with the outline routed. Each time I make something I try to use a new feature so the learning progresses. It's very exciting when something works!!

I really want to try engraving and also some simple 3d types of things. I also received the TTS kit last week so now I need to figure all of that stuff out.

[saabaero]

RTP_Burnsville,

I bought the TTS with my mill last fall and just recently set up my tool table and started using the tool length offsets. I also purchased the touch probe which all my tools are referenced to. I am able to find my workpiece reference point and get my tool height reference at the same time which is nice. It's great once you become comfortable that the tool length offsets actually work correctly and you don't have to hold your breath when hitting the cycle start button.

I find it interesting that there has been 70 some odd views of this thread but you are the only one that has replied. Either my problem is too simple to bother with or you and I are the only ones who read the manual!?

I'm curious if anyone reading this is using an earlier version of 2007 has the "plunge to drill point" option visible in the "Lead In/Lead Out" tab.

[RTP_Burnsville]

Saabaero,

Good to hear that you have the TTS up and working. I think holding my breath will be less often with the TTS which is the main reason I bought it. The way I look at it, crash time would most likely only be the first time I enter the tool vs everytime I change one.

I plan to add a probe system and 4th axis as well once I get a better handle on all that I have been learning the past couple months. Not sure if Mach3 can do part setup with the probe but that is one thing that would be great to have. Also being able to use the probe to measure parts would be a neat feature as well as the tool setup advantage you mention.

Funny observation, likely we are the few lonely manual readers. That is based on my past experience in that few venture so far as to actually open a book! So many would rather just ask for a quick fix rather than understand and figure out all the millions of little details. For me that's part of the fun of this whole adventure!

Back to your issue.... I'll try to use the waterline process shortly as David sent me the IGS file of his router holder that I want to make. I think that would be a good part to give it a try on. First though I have a few small prototype parts to make for someone that has actual $'s to give me.

[saabaero]

Saabaero,

I think holding my breath will be less often with the TTS which is the main reason I bought it.

As long as you don't forget to make sure that the "T & H" parameters are set correctly by your CAM software. I was only changing the "T #" and didn't realize that the "H #" had to match. In the meantime I was going crazy trying to figure out why the minute I ran the program my "Z" value would change.

Not sure if Mach3 can do part setup with the probe but that is one thing that would be great to have.

Not sure if I understand what you mean!?

What type of router are you going to use?

[RTP_Burnsville]

saabaero,

Sorry for the confusion, let me try again.... On the part probe issue I have watched a VMC use a probe system do this: An operator would load the part on the work table to a rough alignment. Once the part was on the table the mill would load the probe tool and then proceed to probe several points of the part. After figuring out the exact location of the part it would adjust the g-code so as to machine the part correctly. There was no need to spend time getting the part exactly aligned to the machine travel. Not sure how usefully this would be for everyone, but if your part building process needed to setup the same part several times I would think this would be a very cool feature to have. I think this would also be useful if one were to do rebuild and repair tasks.

Thanks for the tip on the parameters. I will certainly try to remember that point on the T and H settings.

For a router I have mostly Bosch products, one is the 2hp combo-kit with the fixed and plunge bases, an older 2.5hp plunge only EVS1613 I believe the number is, a Porter Cable laminate 72xx something, a Proxxon IB/E, and I have been dreaming of a Bosch Colt for way to long of time...