10hp Huanyang VFD to run 7.5hp spindle from one phase 220v outlet - Page 2


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Thread: 10hp Huanyang VFD to run 7.5hp spindle from one phase 220v outlet

  1. #21
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    Default Re: 10hp Huanyang VFD to run 7.5hp spindle from one phase 220v outlet

    How's about this, I'll let you guys know if it works or not.

    I will be running it at around 5hp from a 50 amp outlet. That's the best available where I am. It will either work or it will stall. I think there is probably only one way to find out for sure.

    The draw at full power (7.5hp) is 19amps, not 30. It will need to draw around 30a 1ph to output 19a 3ph...., apparently. The 54a in / 31a out is the max it could handle.... apparently.... it's not what I'll be using. The way I intend to use it, it will require 15a out.

    I bought the larger VFD (I.e 10hp VFD for a 7.5hp spindle) to account the "Chinese factor" but... the claim re these 1ph i. / 3ph out VFD's is that they work without derating. I haven't seen anything from any of the sellers that states you need more than 50a or 65a in to get 19a out. I thought the difference in efficiency was accounted for in the 30a in / 19a out calc.

    please can someone explain the math to me to show how it goes from the max 19a out to 65a in?



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    Default Re: 10hp Huanyang VFD to run 7.5hp spindle from one phase 220v outlet

    Quote Originally Posted by Goemon View Post

    please can someone explain the math to me to show how it goes from the max 19a out to 65a in?

    it doesn't. 19 amps 3phase into an induction motor is probably only 13 amps real power.

    13 amps at 220vac 3phase is 4940 watts.

    which will pull about 20-21 amps real power from your 240 volt single phase outlet. however the input rectifier has a power factor of only about .5 to .6, so your 20 amps of real power turn into 35 amps of harmonic crap that the power company doesn't really like all that much. so you need a 40 amp circuit breaker to reliably deliver 4900 watts of real power into your spindle. but your electrical meter will only be billing you for about 5000-5500 watts



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    Default Re: 10hp Huanyang VFD to run 7.5hp spindle from one phase 220v outlet

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldon_Joh View Post
    it doesn't. 19 amps 3phase into an induction motor is probably only 13 amps real power.

    13 amps at 220vac 3phase is 4940 watts.

    which will pull about 20-21 amps real power from your 240 volt single phase outlet. however the input rectifier has a power factor of only about .5 to .6, so your 20 amps of real power turn into 35 amps of harmonic crap that the power company doesn't really like all that much. so you need a 40 amp circuit breaker to reliably deliver 4900 watts of real power into your spindle. but your electrical meter will only be billing you for about 5000-5500 watts

    That's what I thought which is why I was feeling good about running it from a 50amp outlet. I never know who to listen to on this stuff when there is conflicting advice. When someone says "you need a 65a outlet to run your 19a spindle", it sounds wrong but I have to ask to confirm....



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    Default Re: 10hp Huanyang VFD to run 7.5hp spindle from one phase 220v outlet

    Quote Originally Posted by Goemon View Post
    That's what I thought which is why I was feeling good about running it from a 50amp outlet. I never know who to listen to on this stuff when there is conflicting advice. When someone says "you need a 65a outlet to run your 19a spindle", it sounds wrong but I have to ask to confirm....

    You need to read and under stand what has been posted 65A if you read it is for your whole machine not just your spindle , your spindle will run fine on the 50A supply, not enough for any safety factor, but for trying it there will be no problem, just make sure you set the correct Parameters or you will smoke your expensive spindle

    There is more to your machine than just the spindle, if you have a spindle this big, X Y and Z power requirements will have to match the spindle capabilities, or the big Kw spindle will not be doing any work, and be a waste of money

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: 10hp Huanyang VFD to run 7.5hp spindle from one phase 220v outlet

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    You need to read and under stand what has been posted 65A if you read it is for your whole machine not just your spindle , your spindle will run fine on the 50A supply, not enough for any safety factor, but for trying it there will be no problem, just make sure you set the correct Parameters or you will smoke your expensive spindle

    There is more to your machine than just the spindle, if you have a spindle this big, X Y and Z power requirements will have to match the spindle capabilities, or the big Kw spindle will not be doing any work, and be a waste of money

    I can comprehend what has been posted. I just can't see any lineage between my needs and 65a. It's only the spindle that runs on my 220v breaker. Everything else runs on a seperate 120v breaker and even with everything else combined, the draw is small.

    The spindle draws 19a 3ph flat out for which the VFD draws around 33a. Even after I factor in the 20% safety margin, I can't see how it gets up to 65a or even close.

    I've been told (at least) two different things on this. An occupational hazard of asking on forums but this is not just a case of me not reading the post properly.



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    Default Re: 10hp Huanyang VFD to run 7.5hp spindle from one phase 220v outlet

    get your self an AC clamp meter, there not expensive and you will get some answers



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    Default Re: 10hp Huanyang VFD to run 7.5hp spindle from one phase 220v outlet

    Quote Originally Posted by Goemon View Post
    I can comprehend what has been posted. I just can't see any lineage between my needs and 65a. It's only the spindle that runs on my 220v breaker. Everything else runs on a seperate 120v breaker and even with everything else combined, the draw is small.

    The spindle draws 19a 3ph flat out for which the VFD draws around 33a. Even after I factor in the 20% safety margin, I can't see how it gets up to 65a or even close.

    I've been told (at least) two different things on this. An occupational hazard of asking on forums but this is not just a case of me not reading the post properly.
    It's clearly in what you have posted your VFD has a input amperage of 49A, will you use this most likely not anywhere near it, this is the number you gave us to work with

    One thing you have not answered 19A spindle motor, 5.6Kw at 220V is not 19A, if it does have a 19A rating then you don't have a 5.6Kw spindle

    You will have to run your machine from the ( 1 ) Power source this I have already said, that is why you need a good supply, could you get away with a 50A supply it will depend on how hungry your spindle will be to get the job done

    You will create a Ground loop if running from ( 2 ) independent 120 /240v input power supplies

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: 10hp Huanyang VFD to run 7.5hp spindle from one phase 220v outlet

    Goemon in his original post stated he has a 7.5HP spindle. "My spindle is a 7.5hp 24,000rpm 3 phase unit. The label states 18 amps s1 although an online vendor lists it as 20.5amps"

    7.5HP x 746= 5595W 5.6Kw
    3Ø Amps= HP x 746 /1.73 x E x Eff x pf

    7.5 X 746 / 1.73 x 220 x .85 x .90 =19.21A assuming 85% efficiency and a power factor of 90
    7.5 X 746 / 1.73 x 220 x .85 x .85 =20.35A assuming 85% efficiency and a power factor of 85
    I did not see the motor plate so I assumed some values into the formula to get these numbers which I think is close enough for solving the original problem. If I'm calculating wrong please show me the correct formula to use

    Last edited by sparkness; 02-15-2018 at 10:48 AM.


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    Default Re: 10hp Huanyang VFD to run 7.5hp spindle from one phase 220v outlet

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    It's clearly in what you have posted your VFD has a input amperage of 49A, will you use this most likely not anywhere near it, this is the number you gave us to work with

    One thing you have not answered 19A spindle motor, 5.6Kw at 220V is not 19A, if it does have a 19A rating then you don't have a 5.6Kw spindle

    You will have to run your machine from the ( 1 ) Power source this I have already said, that is why you need a good supply, could you get away with a 50A supply it will depend on how hungry your spindle will be to get the job done

    You will create a Ground loop if running from ( 2 ) independent 120 /240v input power supplies

    Check out the name plate for yourself:



    Maybe you know better than PDS but I doubt it.

    The 54a is what the VFD would draw from a 1ph 220v outlet to output it's max possible 34a 3ph is it rated for. These numbers are not what my spindle would draw as I am not using it to it's limit. I went with the next size up to give myself some wiggle room. My spindle's draw is 19a 3ph which this VFD would draw around 33a 1ph.

    I never once said that my spindle would draw 54a.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 10hp Huanyang VFD to run 7.5hp spindle from one phase 220v outlet-img_4064-jpg  


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    Default Re: 10hp Huanyang VFD to run 7.5hp spindle from one phase 220v outlet

    Quote Originally Posted by sparkness View Post
    Goemon in his original post stated he has a 7.5HP spindle. "My spindle is a 7.5hp 24,000rpm 3 phase unit. The label states 18 amps s1 although an online vendor lists it as 20.5amps"

    7.5HP x 746= 5595W 5.6Kw
    3Ø Amps= HP x 746 /1.73 x E x Eff x pf

    7.5 X 746 / 1.73 x 220 x .85 x .90 =19.21A assuming 85% efficiency and a power factor of 90
    7.5 X 746 / 1.73 x 220 x .85 x .85 =20.35A assuming 85% efficiency and a power factor of 85
    I did not see the motor plate so I assumed some values into the formula to get these numbers which I think is close enough for solving the original problem. If I'm calculating wrong please show me the correct formula to use

    Your math looks right. I said around 18a (I didn't have the spindle in front of me at the time) but the actual number on the nameplate is within .1 of your number. Gives me confidence that you know this stuff.

    Out of curiosity, have you seen a lot of variation in those efficiency percentages between motors that hit 7.5hp (or whatever the number is for that motor) at lower rpm (like the 1800rpm milling motors) vs those that hit 7.5hp at 24,000 rpm?

    The reason I ask is that one of the spindles I looked at was 3.7kw but the draw on the nameplate was over 20a. It delivered constant power from 12,000rpm to 24,000rpm but I couldn't see anything else that would account for the larger draw on the plate.



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    Default Re: 10hp Huanyang VFD to run 7.5hp spindle from one phase 220v outlet

    Quote Originally Posted by Goemon View Post
    Your math looks right. I said around 18a (I didn't have the spindle in front of me at the time) but the actual number on the nameplate is within .1 of your number. Gives me confidence that you know this stuff.

    Out of curiosity, have you seen a lot of variation in those efficiency percentages between motors that hit 7.5hp (or whatever the number is for that motor) at lower rpm (like the 1800rpm milling motors) vs those that hit 7.5hp at 24,000 rpm?

    The reason I ask is that one of the spindles I looked at was 3.7kw but the draw on the nameplate was over 20a. It delivered constant power from 12,000rpm to 24,000rpm but I couldn't see anything else that would account for the larger draw on the plate.
    i have a 5 hp inverter rated motor, 93% efficiency and 85% power factor, 1800 rpm, it weighs 75 pounds. i might be wrong on these numbers but i think they were that high, i'll correct them when i get back home.

    a well built 24000 rpm motor should be nearly as efficient as a 60hz motor, but spindles are designed to put a lot of power into a small package, so efficiency is compromised to get higher torque per kilogram.

    anyhow, i'm merely posting again to remind you all that the power factor of the single phase input rectifier on a vfd is only 50-60%.



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    Default Re: 10hp Huanyang VFD to run 7.5hp spindle from one phase 220v outlet

    Quote Originally Posted by Goemon View Post
    Your math looks right. I said around 18a (I didn't have the spindle in front of me at the time) but the actual number on the nameplate is within .1 of your number. Gives me confidence that you know this stuff.

    Out of curiosity, have you seen a lot of variation in those efficiency percentages between motors that hit 7.5hp (or whatever the number is for that motor) at lower rpm (like the 1800rpm milling motors) vs those that hit 7.5hp at 24,000 rpm?

    The reason I ask is that one of the spindles I looked at was 3.7kw but the draw on the nameplate was over 20a. It delivered constant power from 12,000rpm to 24,000rpm but I couldn't see anything else that would account for the larger draw on the plate.
    It would depend on what Voltage it was running at, watts divided by Volts gives you Amps, a ball park number to work with, nothing more to it, find your efficiency factor and you have your answer,

    This table is just a Guide of what to expect when running on single phase, this chart is very conservative

    Just remember the power factor for the VFD output is around half the number sparkness is using so the Amps will be much higher

    The second snip is how to work it out for a regular AC 3 phase motor , that is not driven by a VFD

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 10hp Huanyang VFD to run 7.5hp spindle from one phase 220v outlet-motor_hp_voltage_-to_-amp_-chart-pdf   10hp Huanyang VFD to run 7.5hp spindle from one phase 220v outlet-hp-amps-3-phase-motors-png  
    Mactec54


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    Default Re: 10hp Huanyang VFD to run 7.5hp spindle from one phase 220v outlet

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldon_Joh View Post
    i have a 5 hp inverter rated motor, 93% efficiency and 85% power factor, 1800 rpm, it weighs 75 pounds. i might be wrong on these numbers but i think they were that high, i'll correct them when i get back home.

    a well built 24000 rpm motor should be nearly as efficient as a 60hz motor, but spindles are designed to put a lot of power into a small package, so efficiency is compromised to get higher torque per kilogram.

    anyhow, i'm merely posting again to remind you all that the power factor of the single phase input rectifier on a vfd is only 50-60%.

    For this 50-60%, are you referring to the difference in amps between the 1ph and the 3ph out? E.g. The VFD draws 54a from a 1ph outlet in order to output 34a 3ph?

    If so, I have already taken that into account. If there is an additional adjustment required, I have not taken it into account. I.e. My VFD will draw around 33a from a 1ph outlet to output the rated 19a at full power to my spindle. If that 19a from the 33a input needs to be reduced by a further 50% - 60% - so it draws 33a in and only outputs 9.5a 3ph to the spindle, then I'm probably screwed. Or I'd be stuck running my spindle at no more than 12,000rpm.



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    Default Re: 10hp Huanyang VFD to run 7.5hp spindle from one phase 220v outlet

    Quote Originally Posted by Goemon View Post
    For this 50-60%, are you referring to the difference in amps between the 1ph and the 3ph out? E.g. The VFD draws 54a from a 1ph outlet in order to output 34a 3ph?

    If so, I have already taken that into account. If there is an additional adjustment required, I have not taken it into account. I.e. My VFD will draw around 33a from a 1ph outlet to output the rated 19a at full power to my spindle. If that 19a from the 33a input needs to be reduced by a further 50% - 60% - so it draws 33a in and only outputs 9.5a 3ph to the spindle, then I'm probably screwed. Or I'd be stuck running my spindle at no more than 12,000rpm.
    Now you are finally getting it, you brought to much spindle motor, for what you can feed it with, 5.5 Hp is where you should of been with the same size VFD that you have, would of been a good fit, I would not be to alarmed, as these are just numbers and sometimes, magic can happen, and it will run better than expected, the VFD drive will still output to it's max rated output, if it can get enough from the input supply, when I worked it out I used 70% PF so was very conservative

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: 10hp Huanyang VFD to run 7.5hp spindle from one phase 220v outlet

    Goemon, how did it work out for you?



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10hp Huanyang VFD to run 7.5hp spindle from one phase 220v outlet

10hp Huanyang VFD to run 7.5hp spindle from one phase 220v outlet