Help with my VFD and Mach3 break out board

[jimskeet]

Hi guys
I need some help with my setup.
My machine has the inverter and breakout board that I attached in my post. Plus I have attached the VFD manual.

At the moment Mach3 controls only the start and stop of the spindle via the relay on the break out board.
I have the issue that if the vfd faults and stops the spindle mach3 keeps running creating damage. I just ruined my spindle bearings cause the vfd faulted with an OC-r error while cutting aluminum and I didn't have time to react and stop the machine.

Here are my questions.
1) Is there a way to have mach3 receive an input from the inverter in case of a fault and trigger an e-stop with my current equipment and if not, is it possible with some extra hardware and if so, what hardware?
2) Is there a way to control spindle rpm via mach3 with my current equipment and again if not, is it possible with some extra hardware and if so, what hardware?

The inputs and outputs that I have with red circle are the ones that are available for use, the rest of them are used on axis,home switches etc.

Any help is welcome guys!

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[ger21]

1) Is there a way to have mach3 receive an input from the inverter in case of a fault

Your first question should be why does it fault. Your VFD should never fault, unless there's a problem. If it's faulted more than once, than you have a problem, and need to fix it.

2) Is there a way to control spindle rpm via mach3 with my current equipment and again if not, is it possible with some extra hardware and if so, what hardware?

No, you need a board that can convert PWM to 0-10V, like this. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Upgraded-5-...kAAOSwIFtaAfTm

[jimskeet]

1) It gives me occasionally OC-r which in the manual says it is Steady Overcurrent. I am not sure about the reason.Maybe it is from too heavy cuts. I was cutting aluminum with a 16mm head. 1mm depth of cut 15mm width of cut at 2500mm/min and 18000rpm and after 20-30 min of run it OC-r. I decided to be more conservative with my cuts but I look into a way to have mach3 stop in case of vfd fault.

2)Thanks for that

[ger21]

Again, your VFD should NEVER fault. You shouldn't even have to try to notify Mach3 when it faults, because it shouldn't fault.

[jimskeet]

Well do you have any suggestions on how I can resolve my problem? Should I consider that the Over current fault that I get is from making too heavy cuts and just use my machine at lower material removal rate? Or is there an issue somewhere and how can I resolve it? What to look for?

[mactec54]

Well do you have any suggestions on how I can resolve my problem? Should I consider that the Over current fault that I get is from making too heavy cuts and just use my machine at lower material removal rate? Or is there an issue somewhere and how can I resolve it? What to look for?

There are a lot of variables that it could be

What Kw is the spindle motor??

What Kw is the VFD Drive ??

Is your spindle water cooled or air cooled ??

VFD drive not enough capacity for the spindle motor

Incorrect wiring or input power supply

Incorrect Parameters settings

[A_Camera]

I just ruined my spindle bearings cause the vfd faulted with an OC-r error while cutting aluminum and I didn't have time to react and stop the machine.

Page 21 in your manual says: OC-r = overload or component fail, check motor load. Which actions did you take to prevent this situation? Any fault is an error somewhere along the path and should be taken care of. Have you configured the VFD to match the motor name plate? Is it only happening when you cut? Did you try to start and stop the spindle many times without cutting to see if it works well in that case? Did you ever see any other error?

1) Is there a way to have mach3 receive an input from the inverter in case of a fault and trigger an e-stop with my current equipment and if not, is it possible with some extra hardware and if so, what hardware?

Page 15 in your manual says that you should set Pn28 to 3 which configures the relay output to be set at fault (any fault). Connect the relay common and normally closed output terminals in series with your e-Stop button (assuming you have one and that it is connected as normally closed) and that's it. If the VFD faults then the relay will be energized and the normally closed relay output will open, breaking the e-stop circuit to the BOB, which will signal to Mach3 as well. Never the less, don't expect miracles, if this happens the cutter may be broken already and the work piece damaged because the OC-r is an indication that there was a problem, so it may be too late to save the situation, but at least your steppers will stop and Mach3 will stop sending step pulses.

2) Is there a way to control spindle rpm via mach3 with my current equipment and again if not, is it possible with some extra hardware and if so, what hardware?

No, with the current BOB you have this is not possible. You need to get a new BOB which has 0-10V output as well. Yours seems to have only digital inputs and outputs.

We can help, but best help is self help. You need to read the manuals you have plus a whole bunch of other information available on the Internet or in books. This hobby is really not a "plug-and-play" activity and the road to success can be pretty long and winding with steep uphills if you don't have a solid basic knowledge and currently we have no idea about which background you have so it is not easy to give you advice.

[jimskeet]

There are a lot of variables that it could be

What Kw is the spindle motor??

What Kw is the VFD Drive ??

Is your spindle water cooled or air cooled ??

VFD drive not enough capacity for the spindle motor

Incorrect wiring or input power supply

Incorrect Parameters settings

Spindle and VFD are both 2.2kw and the spindle is water cooled. Wiring seems to be ok. I have attached my parameter settings as .txt.
I have tried changing the pn13 to 1 but didn't have enough time to test if it helped.

Page 21 in your manual says: OC-r = overload or component fail, check motor load. Which actions did you take to prevent this situation? Any fault is an error somewhere along the path and should be taken care of. Have you configured the VFD to match the motor name plate? Is it only happening when you cut? Did you try to start and stop the spindle many times without cutting to see if it works well in that case? Did you ever see any other error?




Page 15 in your manual says that you should set Pn28 to 3 which configures the relay output to be set at fault (any fault). Connect the relay common and normally closed output terminals in series with your e-Stop button (assuming you have one and that it is connected as normally closed) and that's it. If the VFD faults then the relay will be energized and the normally closed relay output will open, breaking the e-stop circuit to the BOB, which will signal to Mach3 as well. Never the less, don't expect miracles, if this happens the cutter may be broken already and the work piece damaged because the OC-r is an indication that there was a problem, so it may be too late to save the situation, but at least your steppers will stop and Mach3 will stop sending step pulses.



No, with the current BOB you have this is not possible. You need to get a new BOB which has 0-10V output as well. Yours seems to have only digital inputs and outputs.

We can help, but best help is self help. You need to read the manuals you have plus a whole bunch of other information available on the Internet or in books. This hobby is really not a "plug-and-play" activity and the road to success can be pretty long and winding with steep uphills if you don't have a solid basic knowledge and currently we have no idea about which background you have so it is not easy to give you advice.

I have tried to run the spindle for 15-20 minutes without cutting anything and changing its speed from 2000-24000rpm and there was no error. It usually happens under heavy cuts like 8mm depth of cut 4mm width of cut at 3500mm/min feed at ~20.000rpm. Or while drilling aluminum at 6000rpm with a 5mm drill. It has happened a couple of times on lighter cuts like 0.5mm depth of cut 8mm width of cut 4000mm/min feed ~7000rpm but the rpm was low and I don't know what torque there is available at those rpm.


So where is the relay output located on my vfd? On the front panel where all connections are? I just connect it in series with my Estop and it will trigger it in case of error?
I do not know if it will help but it will surely be faster than me trying to press the stop button. On the run that my bearings got damaged it even overloaded the stepper drive. I had a 16mm head in the spindle so it could not break it.

[A_Camera]

I have tried to run the spindle for 15-20 minutes without cutting anything and changing its speed from 2000-24000rpm and there was no error.

It is better to start/stop then just test run for 20 minutes. Fully accelerating and stopping requires more current, once the spindle is running the current consumption drops, so there will be no over current until you start to decelerate or load the motor axis and start cutting.

It usually happens under heavy cuts like 8mm depth of cut 4mm width of cut at 3500mm/min feed at ~20.000rpm. Or while drilling aluminum at 6000rpm with a 5mm drill. It has happened a couple of times on lighter cuts like 0.5mm depth of cut 8mm width of cut 4000mm/min feed ~7000rpm but the rpm was low and I don't know what torque there is available at those rpm.

Have you tried to use a speeds and feeds calculator?

I think that cuts like 8mm depth of cut 4mm width of cut at 3500mm/min feed at ~20.000rpm is wrong, too deep and too fast.
Drilling aluminum at 6000rpm with a 5mm drill is OK but you need to have a pretty low Z feed rate and you must peck drill, using a drill bit, not a cutter.
I think that cuts like 0.5mm depth of cut 8mm width of cut 4000mm/min feed ~7000rpm is wrong because of low rpm and high feed rate. I would increase the rpm.

What sort of cutters are you using?

So I where is the relay output located on my vfd? On the front panel where all connections are? I just connect it in series with my Estop and it will trigger it in case of error?
I do not know if it will help but it will surely be faster than me trying to press the stop button. On the run that my bearings got damaged it even overloaded the stepper drive. I had a 16mm head in the spindle so it could not break it.

How about reading the manual...? I mean, seriously, these are very basic basic questions, pretty well documented and you should REALLY study those 25 pages before asking to be spoon fed... In the long run, YOU are the winner if you read the documentation delivered. Sorry if this sounds arrogant, but laziness is not a virtue. While many times we can blame the Chinese for poor documentation, in this case it is definitely not true.

Never the less, here is my answer.

Your config is already set up for the relay, as I would like it, so no change is necessary there. Screw terminals 14, 15 and 16 are the relay contacts, as stated on page 11. Page 5 shows the relay and tells you that:

Lk = 14 = normally open
Lb = 15 = normally closed
Lz = 16 = common

You need to use screw terminals 15 and 16 if your e-stop circuit uses normally closed circuit, connect the relay in series. If you are using normally open circuit then you need to connect 14 and 16 in parallel with your e-stop circuit. This is not a good design, normally closed design is better and safer.

Anyway, now I close your manual and you should open it and read it because it is YOUR manual and it gives answers to all your questions except the feeds and speeds.

[jimskeet]

It is better to start/stop then just test run for 20 minutes. Fully accelerating and stopping requires more current, once the spindle is running the current consumption drops, so there will be no over current until you start to decelerate or load the motor axis and start cutting.




Have you tried to use a speeds and feeds calculator?

I think that cuts like 8mm depth of cut 4mm width of cut at 3500mm/min feed at ~20.000rpm is wrong, too deep and too fast.
Drilling aluminum at 6000rpm with a 5mm drill is OK but you need to have a pretty low Z feed rate and you must peck drill, using a drill bit, not a cutter.
I think that cuts like 0.5mm depth of cut 8mm width of cut 4000mm/min feed ~7000rpm is wrong because of low rpm and high feed rate. I would increase the rpm.

What sort of cutters are you using?




How about reading the manual...? I mean, seriously, these are very basic basic questions, pretty well documented and you should REALLY study those 25 pages before asking to be spoon fed... In the long run, YOU are the winner if you read the documentation delivered. Sorry if this sounds arrogant, but laziness is not a virtue. While many times we can blame the Chinese for poor documentation, in this case it is definitely not true.

Never the less, here is my answer.

Your config is already set up for the relay, as I would like it, so no change is necessary there. Screw terminals 14, 15 and 16 are the relay contacts, as stated on page 11. Page 5 shows the relay and tells you that:

Lk = 14 = normally open
Lb = 15 = normally closed
Lz = 16 = common

You need to use screw terminals 15 and 16 if your e-stop circuit uses normally closed circuit, connect the relay in series. If you are using normally open circuit then you need to connect 14 and 16 in parallel with your e-stop circuit. This is not a good design, normally closed design is better and safer.

Anyway, now I close your manual and you should open it and read it because it is YOUR manual and it gives answers to all your questions except the feeds and speeds.

First of all thanks for the help man. I have read the manual but since I am not very familiar with electronics and I am afraid of doing damaged to my hardware this is why I asked. I have already read the manual but didn't pay attention on the terminals you said. Thanks for clearing this.
About the cuts. The one I use at 8mm doc on wood works fine. I usually use a frequency of 330 and it never stalled. It only stalled once that I tried a frequency of 380.
On the 0.5 depth cuts you are right that the spindle speed is low, I was running this because I had a very long tool stick out ~100mm and the run out of my chinese spindle was a little more than ok and I had vibrations running higher. After the incident with the bearings I decided to grind the spindle and fix my runout. Now my runout is fixed and I can run the tool at much higher speed.

One thing that I didn't fully understand from the manual. I see that the Lb-Lz is the normal closed state. Does this mean that it is like this as default and goes to Lk-Lz only in the case of a fault (since I have parameter 28 set to 3). So all the time the circuit will be Lb-Lz even when the vfd is powered down? Did I get this right?

Also I have calculated the cutting conditions that made my vfd OC-r on the aluminum cut that ruined my bearings and I see that it needs ~0.7kw. I attach an image of the calculation. So since the spindle was at 20.000rpm shouldn't it have more than 0.7kw of power at those rpm??

[A_Camera]

One thing that I didn't fully understand from the manual. I see that the Lb-Lz is the normal closed state. Does this mean that it is like this as default and goes to Lk-Lz only in the case of a fault (since I have parameter 28 set to 3). So all the time the circuit will be Lb-Lz even when the vfd is powered down? Did I get this right?

I really don't know because I don't have that VFD, but my guess is that the relay is energized in case of a fault and will switch to the normally open contact. If that is the case then the normally closed contact is closed even if there is no power on the VFD. In my opinion, this is normal and as I would expect it to work, but it is easy to test, just use a cheap DVM and check continuity between 15 and 16 when the VFD power is off and then also when it is powered on and also when the spindle is rotating normally, without fault. That give you answer to all normal conditions.

Also I have calculated the cutting conditions that made my vfd OC-r on the aluminum cut that ruined my bearings and I see that it needs ~0.7kw. I attach an image of the calculation. So since the spindle was at 20.000rpm shouldn't it have more than 0.7kw of power at those rpm??

I don't know what sort of calculation that is, but yes, normally even a 0.7kW spindle should be able to cut aluminum (in fact, I have also used 0.4kW DC motor some time ago) if you use the right tool and feeds ans speeds. However, it definitely does not say that because you have issues you don't even have 0.7kW available. I think that calculation only shows that the necessary power needed for the defined parameters is 0.7kW.

[jimskeet]

I really don't know because I don't have that VFD, but my guess is that the relay is energized in case of a fault and will switch to the normally open contact. If that is the case then the normally closed contact is closed even if there is no power on the VFD. In my opinion, this is normal and as I would expect it to work, but it is easy to test, just use a cheap DVM and check continuity between 15 and 16 when the VFD power is off and then also when it is powered on and also when the spindle is rotating normally, without fault. That give you answer to all normal conditions.



I don't know what sort of calculation that is, but yes, normally even a 0.7kW spindle should be able to cut aluminum (in fact, I have also used 0.4kW DC motor some time ago) if you use the right tool and feeds ans speeds. However, it definitely does not say that because you have issues you don't even have 0.7kW available. I think that calculation only shows that the necessary power needed for the defined parameters is 0.7kW.

Yes I will test it with my DVM.
The calculation is with the feeds and speeds I used to do the cut. So you think that there is an issue with my VFD and cannot supply the needed power to the motor and faults? But since it is a 2.2kw vfd shouldn't it be able to supply 0.7kw at 300hz frequency? There is no torque curve diagram available for the vfd so I could get an idea of its capabilities

[mactec54]

Spindle and VFD are both 2.2kw and the spindle is water cooled. Wiring seems to be ok. I have attached my parameter settings as .txt.
I have tried changing the pn13 to 1 but didn't have enough time to test if it helped.

I have tried to run the spindle for 15-20 minutes without cutting anything and changing its speed from 2000-24000rpm and there was no error. It usually happens under heavy cuts like 8mm depth of cut 4mm width of cut at 3500mm/min feed at ~20.000rpm. Or while drilling aluminum at 6000rpm with a 5mm drill. It has happened a couple of times on lighter cuts like 0.5mm depth of cut 8mm width of cut 4000mm/min feed ~7000rpm but the rpm was low and I don't know what torque

( your safety circuit should be connected to the RST and GND VFD Terminals )

Your spindle was not designed to cut aluminum with a 16mm cutter, 10mm is about the max they can use, they don't have enough torque to drive a cutter that size, if you where just doing skim cuts then you can use a large cutter

Not sure why you have PN02 set at 330, this needs to be your operating frequency =400 also PN011 can not be 1.5 this needs a minimum setting of PN011=100

There are very few parameters to set in this VFD Drive, You may have damaged the Spindle Motor as you did not set a minimum speed 1.5Hz needs to be a minimum of 100 for your spindle, you basically only have automatic torque compensation, to the max of the spindle rating, you can't get more than what it can produce, without smoke

These are the only needed Parameters to run your spindle, the rest should be left at default

AskPower Parameter Settings For 400Hz Spindle
Mactec54

Pn01=2 ( Number of Motor Poles Will Display synchronized speed)
( Pn01=1 Will Display Frequency )

Pn02=400

Pn03=2 ( VFD Button Control Only ) ( 4= External 0-10v )

Pn04=1 ( VFD Button Control Only ) ( 2= External Control )

Pn05=1

Pn08=15 ( This is adjustable Acceleration and Only a Starting Number )

Pn09=15 ( This is adjustable Deceleration and Only a Starting Number )

Pn010=400

Pn011=100 ( If water Cooled Spindle)

Pn012=400

Pn32=1 ( Set to 3 to Restore Default Parameters ) ( Set Back to 1 to ReSet Parameters )

[A_Camera]

Yes I will test it with my DVM.
The calculation is with the feeds and speeds I used to do the cut. So you think that there is an issue with my VFD and cannot supply the needed power to the motor and faults? But since it is a 2.2kw vfd shouldn't it be able to supply 0.7kw at 300hz frequency? There is no torque curve diagram available for the vfd so I could get an idea of its capabilities

It is difficult to say, but since you have a problem with your spindle I don't think at this moment that the VFD is faulty. Now that you have ordered the bearings I think it is better to fix the spindle first and wait and see later. Anyway, the calculator shows just a theoretical calculation, you may need to adjust feeds and speeds to reality, so personally that would be my last worry. Also, the VFD may output exactly what is needed, but because of your bearings, the spindle may need more power to turn so the motor stalls or have problems because it gets stuck. The VFD will not compensate for this because unless you'd have a feedback regarding actual rpm the VFD has no idea about any spindle issues.

[jimskeet]

Thanks for the answers guys.
So
The PN02 parameter was 330 because I use this parameter to set my spindle speed. Whenever I want to change the spindle speed I go into PN02 and set it at the speed I want it to run.
Also I will set PN11 to 100. I haven't used it at lower rpm any time except once when I ground my inside tapper. Also I have set PN13 to 1 and PN 14 to 400. To have a little more torque compensation.
My spindle acceleration is at 3s and deceleration at 5. I tried having torque compensation at 2 but it was giving me an OC-d which is overcurrent at deceleration. So I switched my compensation to 1.

Seems to work fine like this.

The good thing is that I managed to connect the output relay to an estop input in mach3 so now if the VFD fails mach3 Estops instantly. I tested it by having the torque compensation at 2 and when I stopped the spindle I got the overcurrent at deceleration fault and mach3 Estopped.

[mactec54]

Thanks for the answers guys.
So
The PN02 parameter was 330 because I use this parameter to set my spindle speed. Whenever I want to change the spindle speed I go into PN02 and set it at the speed I want it to run.
Also I will set PN11 to 100. I haven't used it at lower rpm any time except once when I ground my inside tapper. Also I have set PN13 to 1 and PN 14 to 400. To have a little more torque compensation.
My spindle acceleration is at 3s and deceleration at 5. I tried having torque compensation at 2 but it was giving me an OC-d which is overcurrent at deceleration. So I switched my compensation to 1.

Seems to work fine like this.

The good thing is that I managed to connect the output relay to an estop input in mach3 so now if the VFD fails mach3 Estops instantly. I tested it by having the torque compensation at 2 and when I stopped the spindle I got the overcurrent at deceleration fault and mach3 Estopped.

Playing with the Torque setting is like Russian roulette, with these Spindles, you are lucky the VFD faults, if it did not, then you will see a lot of smoke, it's about the same as running, them too slow

That's about normal for Acceleration and Deceleration, your VFD has a Key Pad for you to set what RPM you want to run at, you should not be changing the Parameters to control the speed you want the Spindle to run at, this will mess with how the spindle speed ramps up to speed each time you change this Parameter

Do you not have the VFD wired through your Breakout Board, for Spindle Speed control??

The relay connection is the simplest way to do it, and it works, but the correct connection is through the RST Terminal

[jimskeet]

Playing with the Torque setting is like Russian roulette, with these Spindles, you are lucky the VFD faults, if it did not, then you will see a lot of smoke, it's about the same as running, them too slow

That's about normal for Acceleration and Deceleration, your VFD has a Key Pad for you to set what RPM you want to run at, you should not be changing the Parameters to control the speed you want the Spindle to run at, this will mess with how the spindle speed ramps up to speed each time you change this Parameter

Do you not have the VFD wired to the through your Breakout Board, for Spindle Speed control??

The relay connection is the simplest way to do it, and it works, but the correct connection is through the RST Terminal

My vfd is connected to the relay output of my bob to control start/stop of the spindle via mach3. The relay is connected to the fwd pin on the vfd.
But if the vfd faults, mach3 doesn't have feedback about it and keeps running the program. With help from this thread I found out there is an output relay in the VFD that can be set to switch in case of a fault. So I connected the normal closed and common terminal to an input on the bob and set this input as Estop. So now if the VFD faults mach3 should receive an Estop signal and stop.

I do not have mach3 control my speed because my bob does not have a 0-5v or 0-10v analog output.

[mactec54]

My vfd is connected to the relay output of my bob to control start/stop of the spindle via mach3. The relay is connected to the fwd pin on the vfd.
But if the vfd faults, mach3 doesn't have feedback about it and keeps running the program. With help from this thread I found out there is an output relay in the VFD that can be set to switch in case of a fault. So I connected the normal closed and common terminal to an input on the bob and set this input as Estop. So now if the VFD faults mach3 should receive an Estop signal and stop.

I do not have mach3 control my speed because my bob does not have a 0-5v or 0-10v analog output.

You can us a simple add on PWM board that will give you the needed 0-10v to control the spindle speed

A add on like this is all you need or something similar https://cnc4pc.com/c41-pwm-variable-...rol-board.html

[ger21]

Much cheaper to just switch to the $10 breakout board I linked to at the beginning of this thread.

[jimskeet]

Thanks for the recommendations guys. The thing is that I feel a little uncomfortable at the moment to change my break out board. I don't know all the things I need to set. When I have all the knowledge needed I will probably do it.