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Thread: Help with my VFD and Mach3 break out board

  1. #21
    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help with my VFD and Mach3 break out board

    Quote Originally Posted by jimskeet View Post
    Hi guys
    I need some help with my setup.
    Here are my questions.
    1) Is there a way to have mach3 receive an input from the inverter in case of a fault and trigger an e-stop with my current equipment and if not, is it possible with some extra hardware and if so, what hardware?
    2) Is there a way to control spindle rpm via mach3 with my current equipment and again if not, is it possible with some extra hardware and if so, what hardware?

    !
    Apart from your other problems, it is very easy to monitor the status of the VFD and advise Mach that a fault has occurred with your spindle, and is something that should be implemented in any case IMO.
    IF you have a Proper hardwired E-stop circuit set up that shuts power off and advises Mach that a fault has occurred (stop input) then all you have to do is implement the PD052 to pick up the relay on a VFD Fault, this relay contact is wired into the afore mentioned E-stop circuit.
    Most do not bother to set up a industry standard E-Stop circuit.
    Oh I see now A_Camera mentions it in post #7.
    I also assumed a Huanyang VFD?
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
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  2. #22
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    Default Re: Help with my VFD and Mach3 break out board

    Yeah I did connect the relay of the vfd as an estop input on my board. I do not have an estop properly setup. But I have my control box right next to the machine so in case of emergency I will just hit the switch of the box which powers the drives and the BOB. So in a way it is like an Estop. The vfd relay though just sends an estop signal to mach3.



  3. #23
    Member mactec54's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help with my VFD and Mach3 break out board

    Quote Originally Posted by jimskeet View Post
    Yeah I did connect the relay of the vfd as an estop input on my board. I do not have an estop properly setup. But I have my control box right next to the machine so in case of emergency I will just hit the switch of the box which powers the drives and the BOB. So in a way it is like an Estop. The vfd relay though just sends an estop signal to mach3.
    Then the simplest thing to do to change your speeds on the fly, or at any time is to add just one competent, a 1K to 5K Pot, you can mount this anywhere you want and will be able to adjust the speed with it, just wire it like the diagram 3 wires, so $1.50 to $2.50 and you could add this very easy, nothing else needed, and you can then leave the VFD set how it should be

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Help with my VFD and Mach3 break out board-pot-setup-png  
    Mactec54


  4. #24
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    Default Re: Help with my VFD and Mach3 break out board

    Yeah I have thought about the potentiometer too.



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    Default Re: Help with my VFD and Mach3 break out board

    I had another OC-r fault today. The wiring I did with the vfd relay worked great and mach3 stopped instantly at the moment of the fault. So this issue is resolved. I do not know why I get those OC-r though.
    I was cutting wood.
    vfd frequency was set to 330
    8mm Endmill
    8mm depth of cut
    4mm width of cut
    3500mm/min feed.
    It was cutting with an adaptive clearing strategy like trochoidal milling. The OC-r happened like 15min into the program.


    Also before that operation I run a facing operation on the wood with a 16mm head at
    vfd frequency 300
    5mm depth of cut
    14mm width of cut
    3600mm/min feed
    which lasted around 10 min and didn't have any OC-r, That operation was a lot heavier than the one that I got the OC-r so I cannot understand the cause of my problem.
    Also the operation that I got the OC-r has been running on my machine for around a Year and I had OC-r happen during it around 3-4 times.



  6. #26
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    Default Re: Help with my VFD and Mach3 break out board

    So this issue is resolved
    No, the issue is that your VFD is faulting. If it continues to fault, it's probably going to kill your spindle. You're spindle may already be damaged, which could be why you are getting the faults.

    Gerry

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    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html[/URL]

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
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  7. #27
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    Default Re: Help with my VFD and Mach3 break out board

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    No, the issue is that your VFD is faulting. If it continues to fault, it's probably going to kill your spindle. You're spindle may already be damaged, which could be why you are getting the faults.
    Yeah I meant the issue that if vfd stops mach keeps going and crashes the tool.

    What do you suggest I should check for my issue??
    When you say my spindle might already be damaged you mean mechanic damage or electric damage?



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    Default Re: Help with my VFD and Mach3 break out board

    Probably electrical damage. Either that, or you are just pushing it to hard, but it doesn't sound like it.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html[/URL]

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html[/URL]

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    Probably electrical damage. Either that, or you are just pushing it to hard, but it doesn't sound like it.
    After a mistake I just made I dont think the faults are from load. I have an operation where I do a 100mm deep pocket in wood. I blow the chips every 2-3 min to clear them out of the pocket. I forgot to blow the chips for a while and I started hearing the spindle dropping rpm momentarily and going back again up to speed and this was happening for like 2-3 min until they started dropping so much that got my attention and saw that the pocket was full of chips and clear them out. So now it was loading so much that it couldn't maintain rpm but it didn't OC-r.
    When it OC-r rpm are stable and fine. It jut suddenly and for no reason faults

    Could it be an issue with the winding of the coil in the spindle? Is it easy to rewind the coil? I have done a few motorcycle stator rewinds so I know how to wind coils.



  10. #30
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    Default Re: Help with my VFD and Mach3 break out board

    Quote Originally Posted by jimskeet View Post
    After a mistake I just made I dont think the faults are from load. I have an operation where I do a 100mm deep pocket in wood. I blow the chips every 2-3 min to clear them out of the pocket. I forgot to blow the chips for a while and I started hearing the spindle dropping rpm momentarily and going back again up to speed and this was happening for like 2-3 min until they started dropping so much that got my attention and saw that the pocket was full of chips and clear them out. So now it was loading so much that it couldn't maintain rpm but it didn't OC-r.
    When it OC-r rpm are stable and fine. It jut suddenly and for no reason faults

    Could it be an issue with the winding of the coil in the spindle? Is it easy to rewind the coil? I have done a few motorcycle stator rewinds so I know how to wind coils.
    Yes it could well be damage to the spindle windings, from running it below the minimum RPM, it normally only takes around 30 seconds at low speed to cook them

    The other thing is wiring, is the 4th pin on your spindle Grounded, do you have continuity between Pin 4 and the spindle body, and the Ground wire and the shield correctly terminated, which Terminals have you connected the input power, what terminals does your VFD have R S T or L and N

    Mactec54


  11. #31
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    Default Re: Help with my VFD and Mach3 break out board

    I have never run the spindle below 6000rpm except one time 2 weeks ago at 3000rpm just to grind the inside of the taper. The OCr have been happening long before that so I do not think something happened from this.
    The ground is soldered onto a ring that is clamped with the pin connector on the spindle so there is continuity between the spindle body and the ground terminal on the vfd. I do not remember which terminals my spindle have. I will check when I get to my machine again. It is working with single phase input power. I think it has the R S T terminals and not the L and N but not 100% sure



  12. #32
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    Default Re: Help with my VFD and Mach3 break out board

    Also what do you mean when you say ground and shield correctly terminated? The ground wire is bolted on the ground terminal on the vfd along with the ground wire from the power supply. What do you mean when you say shield?



  13. #33
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    Default Re: Help with my VFD and Mach3 break out board

    Here are 2 photos of the spindle ground and of the wiring in the VFD

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Help with my VFD and Mach3 break out board-2-jpg   Help with my VFD and Mach3 break out board-1-jpg  


  14. #34
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    Default Re: Help with my VFD and Mach3 break out board

    Quote Originally Posted by jimskeet View Post
    Here are 2 photos of the spindle ground and of the wiring in the VFD
    Tt only takes a 30 second run at low speed to do damage, but I think once we get your wiring fixed, you may be ok

    Your wiring is really Bad

    You need to get / have a shielded cable from the VFD to the Spindle, and the shield needs to be terminated at both ends, the way you have it is not helping, you can't use the cable you have used not even for a temporary try, or a Ground connection like what you have done

    Does your spindle have a 4 Pin Plug ??

    Cable Like this is needed CF35-15-04 16 Gauge this is from IGUS

    Don't get any different in the size to what this cable is, or it will not fit the plug correctly on the spindle

    https://www.igus.com/

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Help with my VFD and Mach3 break out board

    Hmm
    My spinlde has a 3pin plug connector. This is why the ground cable is connected like this on the spindle. Also I can see that there is a shield in the cable from the spindle to the vfd but it is not connected somewhere. If you see the photo you can see it coming out at the ends. You think it is possible that my wiring can be causing the issue with the OC-r faults?

    This connection has not been done by me. It was delivered like this to me and I just try to improve what I can by searching where ever I can.

    If I cannot find this cable here in Greece what should I look for?
    Any 16gauge shielded cable with 4 lines will be good for what I need?
    Also when you say shield should be terminated I guess you mean on the pin on the VFD and on the ground end on the spindle, right?

    And how do you suggest to have the ground connected on my spindle?



  16. #36
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    Default Re: Help with my VFD and Mach3 break out board

    Quote Originally Posted by jimskeet View Post
    Hmm
    My spinlde has a 3pin plug connector. This is why the ground cable is connected like this on the spindle. Also I can see that there is a shield in the cable from the spindle to the vfd but it is not connected somewhere. If you see the photo you can see it coming out at the ends. You think it is possible that my wiring can be causing the issue with the OC-r faults?

    This connection has not been done by me. It was delivered like this to me and I just try to improve what I can by searching where ever I can.

    If I cannot find this cable here in Greece what should I look for?
    Any 16gauge shielded cable with 4 lines will be good for what I need?
    Also when you say shield should be terminated I guess you mean on the pin on the VFD and on the ground end on the spindle, right?

    And how do you suggest to have the ground connected on my spindle?
    I guess that could be a problem, 3 Pin plug is not suitable, it needs to be 4 Pin, if the cable has a Shield, then it needs to be clamped into the plug, I don't have a photo of how to do your plug, but a different type of plug will give you an idea of how to do it

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Help with my VFD and Mach3 break out board-ground-wire-2-jpg   Help with my VFD and Mach3 break out board-shield-termanation-4-png   Help with my VFD and Mach3 break out board-grounding-shields-5-png  
    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Help with my VFD and Mach3 break out board

    Well on the ground side I don't see how it could be any different if it was bolted on the inside of the cap. Since it is soldered on the ring that is clamped with the plug which has a nut so it is solid held on the frame of the spindle, the ground seems solid. Also the ground's purpose is to give a path to create an overcurrent condition and trip the circuit breaker in case of a short circuit between the wiring and the frame of the spindle. I don't see how a bad ground would create an overcurrent fault on the vfd. Normally from what i know there shouldn't be any current flowing through the ground cable at all. Now on the shield part I cannot see how it would create an overcurrent fault on the vfd either. As a side effect of the absence of shield I would expect unstable rpm from possible noise getting into the signal, I don't understand how would noise create overcurrent fault.

    Do I get something wrong?

    On the manual the OC-r is described as "steady overcurrent". Which probably means that it is happening for at least a couple of seconds before it triggers? Since it is described as "steady"?
    When the vfd faults the spindle runs normally without any rpm fluctuation so if there was something wrong with the spindle itself wouldn't I see some abnormal behavior on the spindle a couple of seconds before the vfd faults?



  18. #38
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    Default Re: Help with my VFD and Mach3 break out board

    Quote Originally Posted by jimskeet View Post
    Well on the ground side I don't see how it could be any different if it was bolted on the inside of the cap. Since it is soldered on the ring that is clamped with the plug which has a nut so it is solid held on the frame of the spindle, the ground seems solid. Also the ground's purpose is to give a path to create an overcurrent condition and trip the circuit breaker in case of a short circuit between the wiring and the frame of the spindle. I don't see how a bad ground would create an overcurrent fault on the vfd. Normally from what i know there shouldn't be any current flowing through the ground cable at all. Now on the shield part I cannot see how it would create an overcurrent fault on the vfd either. As a side effect of the absence of shield I would expect unstable rpm from possible noise getting into the signal, I don't understand how would noise create overcurrent fault.

    Do I get something wrong?

    On the manual the OC-r is described as "steady overcurrent". Which probably means that it is happening for at least a couple of seconds before it triggers? Since it is described as "steady"?
    When the vfd faults the spindle runs normally without any rpm fluctuation so if there was something wrong with the spindle itself wouldn't I see some abnormal behavior on the spindle a couple of seconds before the vfd faults?
    And how is the Nut that holds the plug tight and making sure the pins in the plug are making good contact, able to clamp the Washer as well, just a bad idea, who ever did this should not be wiring anything, and definitely not selling something like this

    Yes with all your wisdom you have it wrong,The Ground is in use the whole time the spindle is running, ,it is not just for a short circuit or something going wrong

    When using a VFD the spindle or Motor it is driving, creates rotor voltage, which has to discharge through the Ground, if the Ground is faulty then you can get these problems you are seeing, but if we are just spinning our wheels then there is nothing more to post about, your wiring is a problem, even if you fixing the wiring, and it does not fix the problem, you will have at least, fixed a mess that should not be like it is

    So you are saying the manufacturers of VFD Drives have got it all wrong, and the shielded cable is not needed, in most countries it is a code requirement to use Shielded cable and correct termination of the Shield and Ground is a requirement, The Shield is to protect the VFD and other surrounding electronics

    No one buys a 3 Phase spindle that only has a 3 Pin Power connector, there is only one country that uses a 3 Pin connector and that is China

    Mactec54


  19. #39
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    Default Re: Help with my VFD and Mach3 break out board

    The washer is clamped between the spindle and the plug connector. It has a thread washer around it and it is tightened on to the washer. Well the spindle is a 3 phase motor and current flows between the 3 phases because of the 120 degree difference in phase which creates the voltage difference. Ground cable is just for safety on the spindle, and this is why it is connected on the frame and not as a separate line. I am pretty sure that if I disconnect the ground between the spindle and vfd the spindle will work fine. I understand what you say about the wiring be done properly but i am almost sure it has nothing to do with the issue.
    The rotor voltage you mention is created where? Between what? And since it discharges through ground, which means it is in contact with ground, how would create an overcurrent on the main circuit which ground is in no contact with?

    Though I will try to make a more solid ground connection as you suggested.



  20. #40
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    Default Re: Help with my VFD and Mach3 break out board

    Quote Originally Posted by jimskeet View Post
    The washer is clamped between the spindle and the plug connector. It has a thread washer around it and it is tightened on to the washer. Well the spindle is a 3 phase motor and current flows between the 3 phases because of the 120 degree difference in phase which creates the voltage difference. Ground cable is just for safety on the spindle, and this is why it is connected on the frame and not as a separate line. I am pretty sure that if I disconnect the ground between the spindle and vfd the spindle will work fine. I understand what you say about the wiring be done properly but i am almost sure it has nothing to do with the issue.
    The rotor voltage you mention is created where? Between what? And since it discharges through ground, which means it is in contact with ground, how would create an overcurrent on the main circuit which ground is in no contact with?

    Though I will try to make a more solid ground connection as you suggested.
    Try your Torque Parameter back to the default value, Pn 013=0.0 and PN14=10 and try it again

    This is what happens with a VFD driven 3 Phase Motor, this is just a basic photo to show you what is happening inside the spindle motor and why the Ground is important

    The Ground Wire is not just for safety

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Help with my VFD and Mach3 break out board-vfd-driven-ac-motors-rotor-voltage-png  
    Mactec54


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Help with my VFD and Mach3 break out board

Help with my VFD and Mach3 break out board