110v VFD's. Any issues?

[mactec54]

I am definitely interested to hear what sort of performance it is capable of from a 110v outlet and whether it can be run on a typical 110v 10a breaker. I understand that some VFDs contain phase converters and some might even have built in transformers to power 240v spindles but I don't understand enough about electricity to know if that sort of thing is possible without upgrading to a 20a breaker.

You need to have a minimum of 20A circuit to run a 110/120v input VFD drives, 25A is ideal, The voltage is 120v in NA not 110v

[mactec54]

10 amp, 120 volt is 1200 Watts more or less, or about 1.5 HP. 1 HP = 740 Watts. Because of some other factors, the useful power output of a motor is a bit less than the calculated value. Watts is a measure of power. 5 amps at 240V = 1200 watts. 20 amps at 120V is 2400 Watts is about 3 HP

All VFDs are phase converters. Single or 3 phase AC input, converted to DC internally in the rectifier section, then output as variable frequency 3 phase.

The 240 volt output is derived by a voltage doubler circuit inside the VFD, done as the input power is converted to DC in the rectifier section. A simple voltage doubler consists of a couple diodes and a couple of capacitors.

I hope this clears things up for you.

The VFD drives that are rated for 120v input are a standard 240v Drive, with a voltage doubler built into the front end, so the VFD Drive only sees 240v, the power conversion is the first thing that happens, as some that have a 220 / 240v VFD Drives, just use a step-up transformer to do the same job if they only have 120v single phase supply

[Jim Dawson]

The VFD drives that are rated for 120v input are a standard 240v Drive, with a voltage doubler built into the front end, so the VFD Drive only sees 240v, the power conversion is the first thing that happens, as some that have a 220 / 240v VFD Drives, just use a step-up transformer to do the same job if they only have 120v single phase supply

Pretty sure that's what I said above

[mactec54]

Pretty sure that's what I said above

No ! most that offer this do it quite different than what you have described, the problem with this method that you describe would affect the DC Buss Voltage and the outcome would have a dismal output

[HTCOHIO]

Hello Everyone,

Looking for a little feedback here I'm hoping you can help. Ended up purchasing this 1.5 KW 110v spindle for my 3040 cnc and I read through dozens of discussions and forms about the limitations and performance of these Amazon and eBay units. Many people in the forums have mentioned that the 1.5 is at the upper limit of what the standard 20 amp household Outlet can handle

i.e. 1500w/110v=13.6A

That 13.6A or somewhere close to that is what I was expecting to see on the power/amp meter.

This is a 65 mm 1.5 KW water-cooled spindle.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01N1...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I'm posting this to see if perhaps I am missing something or maybe I purchased from a bad seller... But if these numbers are typical in theory I would think I could upgrade to a 3 KW vfd/spindle and still not likely to ever exceed 16 amps.


Please read the additional details I listed on the youtube video information as well.

I apologize in advance if I'm going about this testing all wrong but at least it may educate myself and anybody else reading this.





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[Jim Dawson]

Hello Everyone,

Looking for a little feedback here I'm hoping you can help. Ended up purchasing this 1.5 KW 110v spindle for my 3040 cnc and I read through dozens of discussions and forms about the limitations and performance of these Amazon and eBay units. Many people in the forums have mentioned that the 1.5 is at the upper limit of what the standard 20 amp household Outlet can handle

Very interesting test, thank you for posting. Assuming you have the VFD output set to the max rated amps of the motor, then based on your numbers I would have to say that spindle is way overrated by the vendor. I wonder if that is typical of those spindles in general?

[HTCOHIO]

Very interesting test, thank you for posting. Assuming you have the VFD output set to the max rated amps of the motor, then based on your numbers I would have to say that spindle is way overrated by the vendor. I wonder if that is typical of those spindles in general?

Yes, the output max is set to 13 Amps. I will also mention that I am able verify 24000 RPM with my tachometer under a no load condition.

I also completed this test a couple more times off of video and on one of them the bit completely binded and I was atill <9 amps total.

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[mactec54]

Yes, the output max is set to 13 Amps. I will also mention that I am able verify 24000 RPM with my tachometer under a no load condition.

I also completed this test a couple more times off of video and on one of them the bit completely binded and I was atill <9 amps total.

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That was no way to test it, you did not say if your spindle was 220v or 110v there is a difference as to what the required supply amps would have to be, no matter what voltage spindle you have running on 120V NA supply, the performance will be dismal, compared to the 220v supply for VFD and Spindle

The standard NA House hold circuits are only max 15A rated not 20Amps

[HTCOHIO]

I understand that's what the average household outlet is rated (mine is 20a) also I did mention that the unit is a 110 volt.

But isn't total wattage (power) the same whether its (For example 1100 watts) 110v at 10 amps or 220 volts at 5 amps? I realize that 220 is somewhat more efficient due to the lower line resistance from the lower current.

As for testing, you say that is a bad way to test it how else would you suggest I go about applying the maximum rated load on this motor?

My thought

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[mactec54]

I understand that's what the average household outlet is rated (mine is 20a) also I did mention that the unit is a 110 volt.

But isn't total wattage (power) the same whether its (For example 1100 watts) 110v at 10 amps or 220 volts at 5 amps? I realize that 220 is somewhat more efficient due to the lower line resistance from the lower current.

As for testing, you say that is a bad way to test it how else would you suggest I go about applying the maximum rated load on this motor?

My thought

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The unit does not tell us what you have the VFD Drive can have a 110v /120v input rating and a 220v 3 phase output, the spindle on these can be 220v what do you have 220v spindle or 110v spindle, tell where and who would buy something that is 110v 3 phase in NA if you have this spindle they are junk, only the Chinese make such a motor for the people in the NA to buy, they will make anything if they think they can sell it

If your motor is rated 1.5Kw @ 110v the VFD would have to supply 13.6 A to be 1.5Kw , with stall at 9 Amps gives you only at 990 watts, the 110V / 120V supply would see 15.5 A draw at the 9 A motor stall

Motor current x 1.73 is what to expect at the input power supply to the VFD with any type of install

This also could be how you have set up the VFD Parameters, with Parameters set correct the Spindle should go the max setting in the VFD

Anyone that buys these none standard 110v 3Phase spindles can't really expect anything else, than a dismal performance

Don't even dream that you could run a 3Kw spindle on your 110 /120v VFD, it would be an even worse outcome than what you already have, you would need 47 amps at 110v

[HTCOHIO]

The unit does not tell us what you have the VFD Drive can have a 110v /120v input rating and a 220v 3 phase output, the spindle on these can be 220v what do you have 220v spindle or 110v spindle, tell where and who would buy something that is 110v 3 phase in NA if you have this spindle they are junk, only the Chinese make such a motor for the people in the NA to buy, they will make anything if they think they can sell it

If your motor is rated 1.5Kw @ 110v the VFD would have to supply 13.6 A to be 1.5Kw , with stall at 9 Amps gives you only at 990 watts, the 110V / 120V supply would see 15.5 A draw at the 9 A motor stall

Motor current x 1.73 is what to expect at the input power supply to the VFD with any type of install

This also could be how you have set up the VFD Parameters, with Parameters set correct the Spindle should go the max setting in the VFD

Anyone that buys these none standard 110v 3Phase spindles can't really expect anything else, than a dismal performance

Don't even dream that you could run a 3Kw spindle on your 110 /120v VFD, it would be an even worse outcome than what you already have, you would need 47 amps at 110v

Thank you for the response, maybe it's a lesson learned. FYI the 8.5 total amp draw was on the 110 supply side not the motor side. So if I divide the 7.5a/1.73 does this mean that the output to the motor is a measly 5 amps?


Also, are you saying it's not possible to get 13 amps to the motor on a 20amp circuit?

I just want to get all the information correct so that I can make my case to return this piece of ****...

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[Goemon]

I don't think there is much of a mystery with the lower than expected power draw. The ratings for these spindles will be the max. I have read of few posts from people who measured and found the actual power draw to be a good bit less than the max it would ever draw.

I have also seen threads on here where people power 2.2kw 220v spindles and VFD drives from a regular 110v American outlet with a transformer. They claim it works just as well and some people here claim that it couldn't possibly work as well.

I guess the only way to know for sure would be to measure the draw when running one from a 220v outlet and repeat the test when running through a transformer.

The question is not whether a 220v 2.2kw spindle and VFD could be run from a 110v outlet. It is whether you get the same power in typical use.

I am still planning on running mine through the 220v Nema-10-30 outlet in my work space but I still like to hear what sort of performance people are getting from their 110v set-ups. It seems like there isn't a consensus on what is possible yet.

Does anyone here with a 220v set-up have the ability to measure the actual draw from typical use for us?

[mactec54]

I don't think there is much of a mystery with the lower than expected power draw. The ratings for these spindles will be the max. I have read of few posts from people who measured and found the actual power draw to be a good bit less than the max it would ever draw.

I have also seen threads on here where people power 2.2kw 220v spindles and VFD drives from a regular 110v American outlet with a transformer. They claim it works just as well and some people here claim that it couldn't possibly work as well.

I guess the only way to know for sure would be to measure the draw when running one from a 220v outlet and repeat the test when running through a transformer.

The question is not whether a 220v 2.2kw spindle and VFD could be run from a 110v outlet. It is whether you get the same power in typical use.

I am still planning on running mine through the 220v Nema-10-30 outlet in my work space but I still like to hear what sort of performance people are getting from their 110v set-ups. It seems like there isn't a consensus on what is possible yet.

Does anyone here with a 220v set-up have the ability to measure the actual draw from typical use for us?

I have already told you that a 2.2Kw spindle does not run well on 110v / 120v supply, I'm not sure why you keep going there

Both ways with a Transformer or without 110v / 120v supply have dismal spindle motor performance

The 800w spindles have a good performance when run with the low voltage 110v / 120v

Unless someone has the proper equipment to measure the Amperage ( clamp on the wires ) it would be just a guess if they are looking at what is showing on the VFD Drive

[HTCOHIO]

I don't think there is much of a mystery with the lower than expected power draw. The ratings for these spindles will be the max. I have read of few posts from people who measured and found the actual power draw to be a good bit less than the max it would ever draw.

I have also seen threads on here where people power 2.2kw 220v spindles and VFD drives from a regular 110v American outlet with a transformer. They claim it works just as well and some people here claim that it couldn't possibly work as well.

I guess the only way to know for sure would be to measure the draw when running one from a 220v outlet and repeat the test when running through a transformer.

The question is not whether a 220v 2.2kw spindle and VFD could be run from a 110v outlet. It is whether you get the same power in typical use.

I am still planning on running mine through the 220v Nema-10-30 outlet in my work space but I still like to hear what sort of performance people are getting from their 110v set-ups. It seems like there isn't a consensus on what is possible yet.

Does anyone here with a 220v set-up have the ability to measure the actual draw from typical use for us?

Well maybe not much mystery, I do agree that there are a lot of mixed discussions on this topic furthermore of spoke to several electricians about this over the last couple of days when they both seemed adamant that whether you're drawing X amps on 110 volt or half of (X) amps on 220... Total power is total power.

To a comment on your thought of running a 220v rated spindle on 110 to compare performance probably would not b.good data as the motor is not rated for 110. I mean, I would not be able to connect my 110 volt spindle to a 220 circuit, correct?

I'm not trying to say that you can get as much power out of a 110-volt Outlet as you can from a 220,. I'm just saying that I should be able to easily max out at 16 to 18 amps on a 20 amp circuit. Below is a picture of an air compressor I run occasionally that spikes 216 amps on Startup and runs around 10 amps.

I've done a lot of this back and forth on the RC drone side which I understand is DC. I'm not sure if there was a difference other than for something that flies you have a limited amount of available AmpHours so every extra bit of efficiency that can be gained from the design of the motors and Battery Packs. Put in my garage I basically have more amp hours available then I would ever need.

Is your spindle a 80 mm? I'm just wondering if we're looking at this all wrong and maybe it's more of a torque issue. Most of the 110v versions seem to be 65mm.

I can almost hold the spindle collet with my hand and try to start it and there's very little resistance on start up. Do you have extremely weak low end torque with the 220 version?

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[mactec54]

Well maybe not much mystery, I do agree that there are a lot of mixed discussions on this topic furthermore of spoke to several electricians about this over the last couple of days when they both seemed adamant that whether you're drawing X amps on 110 volt or half of (X) amps on 220... Total power is total power.

To a comment on your thought of running a 220v rated spindle on 110 to compare performance probably would not b.good data as the motor is not rated for 110. I mean, I would not be able to connect my 110 volt spindle to a 220 circuit, correct?

I'm not trying to say that you can get as much power out of a 110-volt Outlet as you can from a 220,. I'm just saying that I should be able to easily max out at 16 to 18 amps on a 20 amp circuit. Below is a picture of an air compressor I run occasionally that spikes 216 amps on Startup and runs around 10 amps.

I've done a lot of this back and forth on the RC drone side which I understand is DC. I'm not sure if there was a difference other than for something that flies you have a limited amount of available AmpHours so every extra bit of efficiency that can be gained from the design of the motors and Battery Packs. Put in my garage I basically have more amp hours available then I would ever need.

Is your spindle a 80 mm? I'm just wondering if we're looking at this all wrong and maybe it's more of a torque issue. Most of the 110v versions seem to be 65mm.

I can almost hold the spindle collet with my hand and try to start it and there's very little resistance on start up. Do you have extremely weak low end torque with the 220 version?

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You can't compare your compressor 50Hz / 60Hz to your spindle at 400Hz, and yes the diameter of the spindle play a big part of your spindle performance, look at the size of the motor on your compressor

You can't also compare your RC motors either, totally different

[HTCOHIO]

OK, I just don't see how the HZ has any Factor in the efficiency of a given motor. Everybody has 50 or 60 hz power because back in the early 1900s it was the most cost effective Transformer design. The cost would have simply been too great back then utilizing Aerospace materials for the smaller Transformers. Nowadays the smaller Transformers are less expensive due to technology as a matter of fact I believe modern aircraft have 400hz AC systems throughout the planes not only to save weight but to eliminate interference from the turbine engines.

I don't mean to get so far off topic but I would like to either coordinate with somebody else or receive some detailed instructions as to how I could go about testing both setups accurately.

You originally mentioned that the way I tested the full load on the motor was bad....

1. What would you suggest as an alternative test method that could be conducted between my 1.5 KW 110 volt and either a future or someone else's 1.5 KW 220v motor.

2. I may want to consider a modification or hack to my vfd to make it 220 capable if possible do you or anyone else have any advice?

3. I highly doubt a 110 spindle will ever be able to accept 220 so if I want to go that route I'll probably have to purchase a separate spindle, correct?


Just keep in mind, I'm not doing this as a business or for Precision Machining parts for the space shuttle. This is just something I find interesting and I've been doing it for fun and learning a lot along the way and this discussion sheds a little more light on the topic for the benefit of the group everybody wins so please try to be a little more descriptive with your reasonings. I understand the 220 is the most efficient and effective means of getting the most power out of any motor but some people either can't afford or maybe they live in an apartment where it's not an option I'm simply trying to explore the science behind the reasoning.


Thanks

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[mactec54]

OK, I just don't see how the HZ has any Factor in the efficiency of a given motor. Everybody has 50 or 60 hz power because back in the early 1900s it was the most cost effective Transformer design. The cost would have simply been too great back then utilizing Aerospace materials for the smaller Transformers. Nowadays the smaller Transformers are less expensive due to technology as a matter of fact I believe modern aircraft have 400hz AC systems throughout the planes not only to save weight but to eliminate interference from the turbine engines.

I don't mean to get so far off topic but I would like to either coordinate with somebody else or receive some detailed instructions as to how I could go about testing both setups accurately.

You originally mentioned that the way I tested the full load on the motor was bad....

The Tool cutter you where using, was not designed to be used like you where using it, your spindle has a minimum speed of 6000 RPM, the cutter you where using was not even suitable to run at your minimum speed, at the speed you could run that cutter at, your spindle would of had no torque to run it, so this test was a fail, I think this answers your question

You are dreaming again, nobody is interested to know what the out come of a flawed test would be, the only way to test to get a result worth posting would be if you could put these spindles on a dynamometer, there is no other test you could do with any accuracy, to have something worth posting

Now you are taking about aircraft, do you not have any concept at all, that your spindle has no connection or relationship, with how a aircraft electrical system is designed and works, the newest aircraft system generators ( VSCF ) Variable-speed constant-frequency, run up to 800Hz, also 400Hz 800Hz aircraft systems have nothing to do with eliminating interference from the turbine engines

I would suggest that you learn how to run / use what you have until it fails, then move to a 220v system, you are just spinning your wheels trying to do any thing else with what you have, it is what it is

At first I thought you where for real but after your ridiculous postings that have no relationship with these spindles, we are just wasting our time

[mactec54]

I can almost hold the spindle collet with my hand and try to start it and there's very little resistance on start up. Do you have extremely weak low end torque with the 220 version?

There is no difference both 110v or the 220v have very little torque, at start up, and you could easily stop the spindle at low RPM, these spindles have max torque, near the max RPM of 24,000, and there is no useful torque below 6,000 RPM you will over heat and burn the spindle out running it below the minimum speed

[AngelArs]

Could someone please clarify something regarding the 110/120 volt spindles? I was about to buy a 110v 2.2KW spindle and then I ran across this thread, and grateful that I did!

From what I understand a 110v 800 watt spindle will have better performance than a 110v 1500 watt spindle, is that correct?

I ask because it seems counter intuitive. I would think the 1.5kw spindle would have better performance. Thank you for the clearification.

[mactec54]

Could someone please clarify something regarding the 110/120 volt spindles? I was about to buy a 110v 2.2KW spindle and then I ran across this thread, and grateful that I did!

From what I understand a 110v 800 watt spindle will have better performance than a 110v 1500 watt spindle, is that correct?

I ask because it seems counter intuitive. I would think the 1.5kw spindle would have better performance. Thank you for the clearification.

On 120V supply you have to have a minimum of 20A to run a 1.5Kw Spindle 25A would be better, so your normal 120v outlet is only 15A so you are not going to successfully run even a 1.5Kw Spindle on it so a 800w is about where you are at with only a 120v 15A supply