Just ordered a Bosch Rexroth EFC5610 1.5kW 230V 1 phase Inverter Drive

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After many discussions and hours or reading, weeks of trying to find facts to read, problems other people experience and so on... I finally made up my mind. Not that I am in a hurry, but today I placed an order on a Bosch Rexroth EFC5610 1.5kW VFD. The order was made to Inverter Drive Supermarket, had a few mail exchanges and received answers almost immediately, so I am very happy with their services so far. Delivery will take 2-3 weeks, but that's OK, I will not be able to use it for a while anyway. I decided to buy this VFD because of a few reasons:

• Very good documentation all the way from sales document to advanced user manual
• Seems to be very high, industrial grade quality
• Very nice, well documented specifications
• Setup and configuration through USB using a free software
• Vector control => low RPM with high torque. I learned this a few days ago on this forum, thank you Mactec54, in a thread where we discussed cheap VFDs.
• Modern design, this model is designed in 2015, based on the latest technology.
• Very good price, £125 with 50% discount. The price from this shop match cheap Chinese VFD prices. I hope I won't be disappointed with the seller or the quality. I would have bought this even if it was not that cheap.
• Conformity with ALL European regulations. I think this is important, at least for me, and I was ready to pay extra for this this part only also. Considering all the issues I have read about on this forum, I don't understand why people bother with cheap VFDs. Even at full price, this VFD is worth every penny, and even the cheaper little brother of it (EFC3610) is miles ahead of every cheap Chinese VFD.
• Built in, industry quality detachable control panel.
• Build in EMC filter.
• ... and so on...

All in all, I think it is a very good VFD. If you are interested, here are the specs:

Bosch Rexroth Electric Drives and Controls

This is how my order looks like:



And this is how the VFD looks like:



I decided to order a brake resistor as well, Not sure I will need it but the price is so low, so it makes no difference. Would be quite expensive if I had to order it separately, so it is better to waste £20 than having to pay twice that much (and more) if I need one.

I will buy the spindle from China, I think that motors are OK to buy that way, but the VFD is more critical component, especially as far as electrical safety is concerned. I'll get back with more information when there is more to say.

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OK, now I bought a spindle as well. I went for air cooled. I think that it will be the best for my needs. Been considering between water and air cooled, but have seen quite a few comments about leaking Chinese spindles so I decided I am not interested in testing/fixing spindles. If in the future I regret this I can always buy a water cooled one.

This is the spindle I bought:



CNC Four Bearing ER11 1 5KW Air Cooled Spindle Motor Engraving Milling Grind | eBay

So, now I have a lot of new toys to play with during and after the summer.

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Why air cooled and not water? Well, the simple answer is that it's because it is easier to set up, but that's not the whole truth, there are several other reasons.

My CNC runs in an ordinary room, with nice wooden floor, which I don't want to risk. I read too many stories about leaking spindles that I really think there is a risk for sooner or later to have a leakage. Even slowly dripping would be very bad. If it would happen while I am near, it would not be a big issue, but if it happens when I am away for a few days, or even 2,3 or 4 weeks... it would mean the spindle is emptied to the floor and the floor ruined.

I also don't want chemicals constantly present, more or less openly in the room. OK, I know that this may be a non-issue for most of you, but I just don't want that.

I also don't think air cooling is really that bad. Today I am using air cooled DC spindle which runs at maximum 12k RPM and I don't find that to be a problem. Now, if I will increase the RPM to twice that much, it may be worse but still, I am willing to try. Maybe I'll regret and will end up with a new, water cooled spindle later on, but if I'd buy one from the start I would never know if I really needed a water cooled or not, and would not know if the air cooled works just as well.

OK, air cooled can not be run as slow as water cooled, or at least some people say that. But... if I am not running slower than 5k RPM today, I will not likely need less than that tomorrow neither, so I figure at 5k RPM I will still be safe, but if not, I'll learn something.

I am also not a full time user of the CNC, this is just a hobby and also have a full time job, so even if I'd like to use it more, I don't have time for it. I guess it would be different if I would run the machine 6-8 hours a day, maybe I'd easier find advantages in a water cooled spindle in that case.

Lastly, I also made a dust shoe, and it seems to be very efficient. I made a test run, surfacing the MDF spoil board and it works better than I expected. No MDF dust flying around and no smell in the room. OK, this was just down by 0.2mm, so not really milling, but I know it is going to work well because I have already used it even for some plastics. Anyway, here is a video showing it in action over my spoil board today.

[Sundayforsammy]

Hi,
I'm liking the little dust shoe you have made, it looks small but efficient.
I understand why you have gone for the air cooled spindle now, due to your flooring and possible spillages. I don't have this worry as the CNC is in the shed. I have set up my water cooling today and have ran the machine on a few jobs totalling 6 hours work with no spillage, but time will tell. I am also very happy with the very low spindle noise level and simple set up of the VFD. Although the cheap Chinese VDF won't be as nice as the Bosch one you have gone for.

[A_Camera]

Hi,
I'm liking the little dust shoe you have made, it looks small but efficient.

Thanks. It is a very simple, but extremely efficient thing. Actually, during a test run on 5mm thick acrylic sheet I missed the depth of the tabs to hold a larger piece in place (20 x 50mm), I milled through the sheet and the piece disapeared into my vacuum cleaner. So, yes, it is very efficient, even tough it would have been better if the dust shoe was mounted on the X axis only, not the Z. Well... maybe next time.

I understand why you have gone for the air cooled spindle now, due to your flooring and possible spillages. I don't have this worry as the CNC is in the shed.

If I would have a proper shed or a workshop/garage or whatever not as sensitive as my floor, maybe I'd go for a water cooled one, but now I want to try air cooled first. No big deal, if I am not happy I can always buy a water cooled one and sell this one.

I have set up my water cooling today and have ran the machine on a few jobs totalling 6 hours work with no spillage, but time will tell. I am also very happy with the very low spindle noise level and simple set up of the VFD. Although the cheap Chinese VDF won't be as nice as the Bosch one you have gone for.

If I'd use my CNC for such long jobs I'd definitely make sure I have a "proper" place for my machine as well. For me it is just a hobby, a totally new trade and new challenge in life, so it's OK to have it the way I have it. I am glad you are happy with your spindle and VFD.

[A_Camera]

My spindle arrived yesterday. Opening the box was a bit of a disappointment for several reasons...

The foam which was around the motor was severely damaged, it seems like they have dropped it before they boxed it. The box was not damaged, but the foam was, as my pictures show.





It is clear that the foam was damaged before shipment since they put a piece of tape on one half, but missed the other half.

Once I unscrewed the top I discovered as usual, no earth. I did some measurements and could see no measurable problems, but when I wanted to screw back the top, I have noticed that the screws are very thin, one was not even holding the top cap. Measuring the screws revealed that they are all very poor quality, well below the tolerance level of M3 screws, so I decided to replace those.



Today I bought a box of 40mm long M3 screws which are definitely better.



I am not sure yet if I will ground the motor casing or not, perhaps I will try without. One reason for not grounding is that I don't want to risk frying my electronics when using my tool setter. Perhaps I will make a new one, which is better, but for now I think I will just run as it is.

There is also a strange, partially drilled hole in the collet, I don't know why.



Anyway, I have not been able to test run it, since I am still waiting for the VFD.

[mactec54]

I am not sure yet is I will ground the motor casing or not, perhaps I will try without. One reason for not grounding is that I don't want to risk frying my electronics when using my tool setter. Perhaps I will make a new one, which is better, but for now I think I will just run as it is.

You of all people should know the Spindle to the VFD has to be Grounded, and the VFD to the main supply, this will be a safety issue, if not, it also can damage the VFD without a Ground connection, I’m sure the Bosch specs point this out very clearly, you will also need to use a Shielded cable from the Spindle to the VFD

There is also a strange, partially drilled hole in the collet, I don't know why.

This is normal, for the Nut to be drilled like this, it is for Balancing the Nut

[A_Camera]

You of all people should know the Spindle to the VFD has to be Grounded, and the VFD to the main supply, this will be a safety issue, if not, it also can damage the VFD without a Ground connection, I’m sure the Bosch specs point this out very clearly, you will also need to use a Shielded cable from the Spindle to the VFD

Yes, I know, and Yes, you can be sure I will read and follow the specs. But... I may TRY without. No necessarily using it. I doubt anything would happen if it is not grounded, unless there would be a short circuit somewhere, which I measured already, so that is not the case. PE is for safety of the people, not the machine or the VFD. Other than that, yes, I will DEFINITELY use shielded cable, there is no reason for not to use that. Never the less, of course, I will make a proper touch plate, which will be isolated, so that I can connect the case of the motor to PE also.

Yes, I have already seen that page of the manual, but thanks for pointing it out anyway. I have even ordered a cable clamp plate (item #4) which is necessary to get the right shield and PE connection.

This is normal, for the Nut to be drilled like this, it is for Balancing the Nut

OK, so should I dill every one of my collet nuts in similar way? How do you know where exactly to drill and how much good must be removed?

[mactec54]

OK, so should I dill every one of my collet nuts in similar way? How do you know where exactly to drill and how much good must be removed?

No you can not just Drill the Nuts just anywhere, this one has been put on a High speed Balancing machine, to do what has been done to it, you won't be able to use just a regular unbalanced nut on your spindle

You also can't use a shielded cable without using a Ground wire, this would be extremely dangerous to use a shield without a Ground wire being in place also

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I made a short "unpacking" movie. No test run yet because I am still waiting for the VFD to arrive.

[A_Camera]

No you can not just Drill the Nuts just anywhere, this one has been put on a High speed Balancing machine, to do what has been done to it, you won't be able to use just a regular unbalanced nut on your spindle

OK, but how come nobody is selling balanced collet nuts? What to do if you need to replace a collet? Do you really think this is so critical for the small, ER11 nuts? Also, do you really think the Chinese have used a balancing machine? Anyway, I will see what happens, if it makes a difference using the same end mill on the same material at the same speed.

You also can't use a shielded cable without using a Ground wire, this would be extremely dangerous to use a shield without a Ground wire being in place also

You have misunderstood me. Of course, I know the shield must be grounded and there is no reason not to ground it. The VFD will be connected to a wall plug and ALL my wall sockets are grounded. The motor will be connected to the VFD according to the specifications given by Bosch in the manual, the only thing I may not do immediately is grounding the motor frame. This does NOT make it into a dangerous thing at all, only if there would be an internal connection failure in the motor, which is not the case since I measured it.

Also, another thing... using shielded cable without earth connection is NOT dangerous at all. What is happening is that the shield would not have the protective function, and electrical noise would cause noise issues on other electrical equipment. Of course, installing shielded cable and not earthing the shield is pretty stupid, but if my VFD would have arrived at the same time I would have connected it without using a shielded cable because I still have to buy the cable and the only type I have right now is unshielded, which is the same as using a shielded cable but not earthing it.

Never the less, it also depends on how much time I have before the VFD arrives, I may fix the ground in the motor AND build a new opto isolated touch plate before it arrives, and of course, the target is proper PE connection before use, but since this is air cooled motor, the risks are really not that high as if it was water cooled. I would not even consider a test run without that earth is it was a water cooled motor.

[A_Camera]

Mactec54, or anyone with insight...

Is there an answer to my questions above?

How come nobody is selling balanced collet nuts?
What to do if you need to replace a collet?
Do you really think this is so critical for the small, ER11 nuts?

I would be very interested to know. I have several nuts and only one which supposed to be balanced and don't want to destroy my spindle. Where to get balanced nuts, or how to balance it without an expensive machine? Or is it really that critical???

[G59]

If you think about it. They balanced the spindle motor and nut together as a unit. 99.999% of all the collet nuts out there are already well balanced on their own. Nothing more to do to them. But when you balance the motor assembly with nut attached, it is easier to adjust the out of balance of the assembly, off the nut instead of the rotor.

Proper balancing would of required disassembly of the spindle.

[mactec54]

Mactec54, or anyone with insight...

Is there an answer to my questions above?



I would be very interested to know. I have several nuts and only one which supposed to be balanced and don't want to destroy my spindle. Where to get balanced nuts, or how to balance it without an expensive machine? Or is it really that critical???

Just do a search every manufacturer makes Balanced ER Nuts from 10,000 RPM to 24,000 RPM, Critical of course it is, You need spindle parts ( Nuts ) to be rated to G 2.5 standard, this is just as Critical as your wiring has to be, which you still don't seem to know what you are doing, you talk the talk but have your head in the clouds

[G59]

the only thing I may not do immediately is grounding the motor frame.

It should be the first thing you do.

This does NOT make it into a dangerous thing at all

It does and not only for you but for sensitive electronics.

[A_Camera]

Just do a search every manufacturer makes Balanced ER Nuts from 10,000 RPM to 24,000 RPM, Critical of course it is, You need spindle parts ( Nuts ) to be rated to G 2.5 standard, this is just as

OK, I'll do a search once again, but in other words, you don't know where to buy balanced ER11 nuts, and I mean nuts alone, without motor. Thanks anyway.

Critical as your wiring has to be, which you still don't seem to know what you are doing, you talk the talk but have your head in the clouds

You don't seem to understand. I know 100% what I am doing and how to wire the spindle and the VFD. I am NOT going to use it without earth or shielded cable, so don't worry. What I mean is that I'll TEST RUN without the necessary modification, and the reason should be pretty clear from my images above. The motor seems to have been dropped before they packed it so I don't know if it is working or not. I am currently in discussion with the seller and will see how that ends up, but I definitely don't want to modify before I know the motor is working well, just in case I want to return it. ...and I assure you, unless there is something seriously broken inside the motor, there is no connection between the live wires and the motor tube, so regardless of what you are saying, it is NOT dangerous to start it up. The earth connection is necessary for safety and for noise protection but nothing else. You, of all people on this forum should understand that. By that, I am NOT saying that I am in favour of using it without proper earth, but really, NOTHING should happen, even if I'd connect it without any shield or earth, except that it may disturb my radio reception. To test run the motor on my desk can hardly cause any damage, unless the motor is broken. Never the less, of course I'll check and measure everything possible BEFORE I start using it. If anything wrong, I'll send it back and claim a refund. If I modify the motor the seller will not take it back, which I understand.

In the meantime, just a few minutes ago, I received a mail from Inverter Drive Supermarket saying that the VFD is out of stock and will be at their premisses in UK on the 20th May, so I'll have to wait quite a while more before I can test run the motor. I'll get my shielded cable tomorrow and have plenty of time even to make an isolated touch probe, so there is not even the slightest need for starting to use my motor without earth. Once I have tested the motor on my desk I'll modify it, that work takes only a few minutes, so there is no reason not to do it once I know the motor is working. That's it, nothing else and I hope it is clear now what I meant.

Don't worry, I am perfectly aware of what I am doing and why, so there is no reason for you to become rude. I respect your opinion but dislike the rudeness in your tone.

[A_Camera]

It should be the first thing you do.



It does and not only for you but for sensitive electronics.

Please read the whole story, not just those two lines. In short, I must test the motor because I suspect it got dropped before they shipped it to me.

It is not planned to be used without earth, but will hardly cause any damage on my desk, alone without anything around. It will also not cause any harm to me, I am in full control over the situation and know exactly what I am doing and why. Don't worry, I will follow EVERY safety instruction stated in that 340 pages manual, except during my initial start up test on my desk. That was one major reason why I bought this Rexroth and not one of the most common, cheap Chinese VFD without any proper documentation, and the little that comes with those is badly written so half the world don't understand it. At least with the Rexroth nobody can blame that the documentation is not clear about how to connect and configure the VFD, as opposed to all the cheap ones from China. I just hope it comes before the end of May...

[A_Camera]

If you think about it. They balanced the spindle motor and nut together as a unit. 99.999% of all the collet nuts out there are already well balanced on their own. Nothing more to do to them. But when you balance the motor assembly with nut attached, it is easier to adjust the out of balance of the assembly, off the nut instead of the rotor.

That's what I suspect as well. Not only that, but such balancing requires an expensive machine as well, and test running EVERY motor, which I don't think they are actually doing for this price. Never the less, I will test, using the same settings and material, just changing the nuts around, and if I notice some issues I'll use that single nut only until I find a solution. I think though that most people when they buy ER11 nuts they just buy the ones they come across. I have not yet seen balanced nuts for sale, and I mean nuts without spindle.

Proper balancing would of required disassembly of the spindle.

Yes, and balancing with the spindle means that if you damage that nut or want to have many so you can have your tool changes prepared then you can't buy any spares so you have to throw away that spindle and buy a new one. I think most people wait with that until the motor is dead. But sure, properly balanced nut and spindle is the best solution in an optimal world.

[jfong]

I bought a couple extra er20's from Tormach, just the nut itself. They didn't have any drilled balance dimples like on my 2.2kw spindle er20 nut. Those extra nuts were for my mill that only spins at 2500rpm. Not to worried about balance there.

You can get er11 nuts on eBay for under $2. Quality is suspect. Shars, McMaster Carr, MSC, Enco etc would probably carry a better quality one.

[G59]

In short, I must test the motor because I suspect it got dropped before they shipped it to me.

Yes, no point modifying anything in case you need to return it right away, before even putting any time on it.
That makes sense, but you know as well as I do, others might think this is OK to do all the time and run your machine like that.
OK for you as you have a good understanding of it.

I hope everything works out for you.

This might answer a question.