1944! Colchester lathe coversion

[mattinker]

Adobe,

thanks for the encouragement and advice which haven't fallen on deaf ears! As I've said before, my experience is extremely limited. Although I've been sharpening drill bits by hand for years, my machine tool sharpening is very limited, I have an Elliot M10 shaper, for which I've made tools with reasonable success, I've now got to go back to sources on lathe tool sharpening. Sometimes by chance things cut well! I've had reasonable results with high speed steel tools which would seem to suite my purposes better than carbide. Any hints on sharpening or web sites about sharpening would be greatly received (The Shireline site was useful).

I hope no news about your health is good news. Matthew

[mattinker]

Finally some photos. Now that I' writing this, I realize that I was thinking in French when I named the pics!


Tour1: -This is the holder that I made to retouch the inside of the chuck jaws. I haven't yet made the blocks to go between the jaws so that it's locked closed when I true it up.

Tour2:- The lay-shaft, a piece of hot rolled 25mm bar, turned down to 20mm at the ends and sleeved up to 1 1/8" to take the flat belt pulley. I'll change the belt as soon as I can! The "V" step pulley came from another project, it just happened to have useable sizes!

Tour3:- The cross slide ball handle was damaged in transport, so I amused myself turning this from a blank that I'd cast some spares for another project thinking "that'l be useful one day".

Tour4:- The very temporary nature of the half horsepower motor mount!

Tour5:- Shows the second phase of the drive train, the frame for the lay-shaft is as it will be except that I will be adding a tensioner for the flat belt. The half horsepower motor held on with "G" clamps is not the final one, but it had a pulley which will allow me to bore out the motor pulley to fit the 25 mm shaft.

Well that's it for now.

Matthew

[awemawson]

You're getting there !

I doubt that that air pistol drill will really spin fast enough for that internal grinding wheel - at that diameter you need a few thousand rpm to avoid more wear on the wheel than the object being ground.

[mattinker]

I thought about this before I started, I was a bit disappointed at the speed that this drills turns at, I've known them much faster. I will be running the spindle as fast as I can so the speed of the drill will be added to the spindle speed. Mathematicly, I don't know how this works, but I think that the surface speed of the grind stone relative to the speed of the moving jaws should be the sum of the two surface speeds. This is what I'm hoping! More later when I've made the blocks to go between the jaws.

Matthew

[mattinker]

Well, I was surprised by the results that I got from "that air pistol drill", it took the metal off reasonably well, but the chuck is the one that Noah had on his ark, so worn, now it has an acurate spot around 35mm in diameter whereas it had run out every where before! Ok so I'll have to replace it!

You're getting there !

I doubt that that air pistol drill will really spin fast enough for that internal grinding wheel - at that diameter you need a few thousand rpm to avoid more wear on the wheel than the object being ground.

I've finally got myself a digital camera so I'm getting the pictures sorted.

Pictures tomorrow.

Matthew

[mattinker]

Well, there not very exciting!

The first one is just things I got through the post. The pump is a fountain pump(cheap solution). I've been using a similar one on my band saw for the last three years with very little trouble. It's 220 volt(yes 220) double insulated everything in my workshop runs through 30milliamp trips, so a current leak of about 1,5volts trips them. All I'll need to complete things is a bit of plastic pipe and a plastic jerry can. I made a very efficient magnetic filter for the band-saw just by taping a large magnet to the outside of the jerry can where the coolant runs down the side on its return. I have had very little trouble with filings in the pump.

I changed the old and rotting flat belt for a continuous synthetic one, I miss the flap-flap of the connector going by, but it doesn't slip so much.

The primary drive is in place along with the Chezck 1,5 HP motor. unfortunately, the pulley was an early casting, it has faults in the smallest diameter is breaking up all ready! I must find or make a new crucible, I've got lots of things to cast.

I've put in a series of photos of a fixed steady rest that I'm making as I'm going to need one soon. It's a low budget steady, using roller skate bearings that I had left over from some thing else, all thread, nuts and spring washers and 15mm thick plate. The body is made from a piece 200mm wide. I cut it hexagonal to get a maximum inside diameter. I used a plywood jig to cut out the inside circle with my plasma cutter. It's surprising how little the plywood burns.

I'd like to know whether you think these non CNC things which are part of an overall scheme are of interest and worthwhile.

Regards, Matthew

[Nzoldun]

There is an extremely good series of three articles in the UK magazine "Model Engineers Workshop", issues 102, 103 and 104, in 2005, which cover the basics of the choice of steppers, sized to match the expected loads. Although the articles are expressly written around the conversion of an X3, I am using them as the basis for converting my GL-45 Mill-Drill (Similar to X3 but about twice the size) If you are unable to source from your end, I could scan and e-mail the relevant bits.

Hope this helps!
My e-mail is grant.notley@xtra.co.nz

[bigbunny5]

It was made the year after the French passed the law that obliged the use of the metric system, fourty years after it's introduction! It is beautiful to use,

Gee I never knew it was illegal to use Civilized units of measurement in France I always just thought you guys Hated Americans for some reason I think I have some Metric Tools out there in the shop. If I remember Right, their hiding behind my Whit-worth tools I had to get for that old Triumph Motorcycle I had.

[mattinker]

Hi,

I would be very interested in anything about choosing steppers. I've been using a spring balance (fish scales, no not the things you scrape of fish before cooking! the things you use to weigh them!) and a piece of string wound around either the lead-screw (I used a 100 tooth change gear otherwise it was off the scale!) or the cross-slide screw, you pull on the balance and it will read out ounces or grams of pull for a given diameter. This is a start, but not enough! So any additional information would be use full. I have no idea how to begin trying to get the three back numbers.

Thanks Matthew

There is an extremely good series of three articles in the UK magazine "Model Engineers Workshop", issues 102, 103 and 104, in 2005, which cover the basics of the choice of steppers, sized to match the expected loads. Although the articles are expressly written around the conversion of an X3, I am using them as the basis for converting my GL-45 Mill-Drill (Similar to X3 but about twice the size) If you are unable to source from your end, I could scan and e-mail the relevant bits.

Hope this helps!
My e-mail is grant.notley@xtra.co.nz

[mattinker]

Hi!

Who said I was French, I'm a Brit, I've been here the better part of thirty years! The French hold the Americans in awe, they are eternally grate full to those that that liberated them trom Nazism. The French also know a lot about the Arabs, having had most of North Africa as Colonies. They made their descisions based on their situation in Europe and history. Nothing to do with not liking Americans!

It isn't illegal to use measurements other than the metric system in france, it's just that official weights and measures are metric!

Matthew Just outside Paris

Gee I never knew it was illegal to use Civilized units of measurement in France I always just thought you guys Hated Americans for some reason I think I have some Metric Tools out there in the shop. If I remember Right, their hiding behind my Whit-worth tools I had to get for that old Triumph Motorcycle I had.

[bigbunny5]

Hi!

Who said I was French, I'm a Brit, I've been here the better part of thirty years! The French hold the Americans in awe, they are eternally grate full to those that that liberated them trom Nazism. The French also know a lot about the Arabs, having had most of North Africa as Colonies. They made their descisions based on their situation in Europe and history. Nothing to do with not liking Americans!

It isn't illegal to use measurements other than the metric system in france, it's just that official weights and measures are metric!

Matt I do apologies for making an A** of my self for assuming you were French because you had talked about French law. Having visited France I bet it could have been a nice place except all the Stuck up People. I currently have to work with 2 different French Engineers from time to time and their Krazy metric stuff drives me NUTS. I'm Just a DUMB Texan who has a very large investment in my Imperial tools, a lot of them NO WAY could I ever replace with the same quality new. I have some measuring tools that are on their 4th generation of use and still high quality. Some tools can't be replaced because of the poor state of tool making. like my Watch Makers lathe that is almost 100 years old and still see use every day. and my Drafting tools I make my living with, aren't even made anymore much less in METRIC! I still do Drafting and technical illustration by hand on the board in pen and ink! I fear the next president of the other 49 lesser states will put another big push on the Metric thing! the #1 reason I refuse to just let my old truck die is all new cars are computerized and metric, unworkable by the regular guy! also there is a rumor if the next president is the wife of a former president, her first act will be to surrender the other 49 lesser states to France. any how I hate to see the art of Machinist go away! and I hate to see everything I have in this world be retired by the whims of the euros.

[mattinker]

Hi bigbunny5,

Strange name! I accept your apologies. When I trained as a mechanic in the UK starting in 1972, we used the "new" (introduced in 1946) Unified system. The Whitworth system was still in use by some, truck body builders for example and the metric system was rearing it's ugly head. At that time, some German built chassis had metric threading on their engines and gearboxes! So my first "set" of tools had three different systems! I am still capable of using the "Imperial" feet and inches (based on the length of Henry the eights foot, pretty logical ;-}) but for machining, and stuff, dare I say it I find the metric system easier than returning to decimal inches! The 1944 colchester, subject of this thread has Whitworth/BSF threads, these are complicated. In the 19th Century, before Mr Whitworth, everybody just made what they felt like, no standards! Mr W decided to make a standard. He made the choice of naming spanner (wrench) sizes after the size of the thread instead of the way we do it now across the flats so a quarter Whit was just over 9/16th. The Witworth system was a coarse thread, great for 19th century cast Iron, but no fine stuff. The introduction of the BSF British Standard Fine continued using the same spanner sizes but BSF diameters were 1/16th" bigger. So a long time favorite long after everything else had gone Unified, was the UK battery terminal it used a 1/4 W 5/16 BS nut size. Well if it wasn't complicated enough, during the First World War 1914-18, or 1917-18 depending on which side of the atlantic you are, it was decided to reduce nut and bolt hexagons by one size, so the dimensions marked on the tools no longer correspond with anything!

It's like computers, the best system is the one you learnt on!

The oldest machine in my workshop is an 1840 Panbreak. The threads don't appear to be anything like anything I can find! They seem closer to inchs than the metric system, but I don't know who's foot the pre-metric system was based on!

Just for fun a 3/4 open ended spanner next to one of the nuts on the brake!

3/4" Whitworth, 3/4" Unified 5/16W3/8BS

All the best Matthew

[bigbunny5]

Matt, You want to hear my Funny Whitworth story ? back in High School, I found an Ariel Square 4 with Lovely Whitworth threads and found the funny thing about the Whitworth thread pitch that there is some weird slop that allows the threads to strip in the middle of the bolt so you can niter loosen or tighten the head bolts, and I being a stupid American, just drilled out the head bolts and put Helicoils with imperial threads in it thus ruining any value the motorcycle had, that and the constant need to prove it would do the "TON" then there was the Triumph 750 with the 1/2 imperial 1/2 Whitworth. and being the Dumb American I am I also fear the Metric system because I'm too old to think in base 10 after 40 years of thinking in base 12 I'm also Jealous you live in a country where old tools are available

[amaroo66]

Good day mat,

Just wondering if you have any more photos of the final drive assembly?

I am at the same stage with a 1949 Triumph.

Cheers Wayne

[mattinker]

Wayne,

I'm sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, I've been re-installing my computer, which has taken me longer than planned! I hope the photos that I've included are useful to you. Originally, I used the flat belt that I got with the box of bits that were with the lathe. I replaced it with a "modern" continous flat belt of the same size. The "V" belt arrangement is maybe a bit light, as these lathes were equiped with a tripple belt set up (see http://www.lathes.co.uk/colchester/page14.html) but I had a belt so I used it. If it turns out to be too light I'll double or tooth belt drive it at a later date. Please note that this set up is to be able to use the lathe to make it's self. I have another motor, 2hp three phase and a VFD speed control to go on later so when that's ready, one day! I'll re-think the transmission. I'll probably use a Toyota cam belt in the modified version (I have a toyota pick-up!) No finding paires of matched belts, just toothed wheels. Maybe I could set up my 10" Elliot shaper to cnc toothed wheels, humm, I need to learn some more before attacking a cnc shaper!

It's difficult to see, but both the lay-shaft and the motor mount are pivoted at the same place so that the weight of the motor tensions the belts.

I have also installed the lathe on it's own block of concrete both to raise it and to anchor it. The block is set on a piece of phonic insulation material which cuts down sound transmission through the floor.

I've been doing a lot of earning my living and working on my home and work shop rescently so this thread is very slow! It looks as though the ELS will be coming out soon so that will be another incentive to get on! I have to get the stepper on the feed-screw in place make an encoder for the spindle and modify the split nut to take up slack in order to begin using the ELS.

Do you have any photos anywhere? Do you know where I might find a cross slide nut and even a screw. I was thinking about making the nut in either Al bronze or zamac (ZA12) but I'm a bit bogged down by too many projects.

Don't hesitate to ask! Whatever, I'll see if I can answer.

I'm looking forward to getting back to this project sooner.Matthew

[mattinker]

Hi,

I've been pretty tied up with work and building my home/workshop. I've been itching to get back to my lathe. In between times, I've bought myself a mill, a universal "H.Ernault Souma ZHV1" 1400kgs, powerfeed on all axees, SA40 cone, a useful implement, that's been distracting me more than a little!

I some what sadly took of everything that was no longer needed on the lathe. The tumbler gears, the change gears, the lead screw gears and the drive to the cross slide power surfacing feed. I can see a little more clearly now, so I can begin to make the encoder wheel, prepare the stepper mount and machine the drive pulley for the feed screw. So here are some photos of things coming off and the new mill!

Not a very inspired episode, but I need to get back into it!

How does one stop pictures being turned on their side when they were saved the right way up?

Matthew

[praetor]

..."oldie but a goodie"? I'm not from the old school of machining, but I have noticed that period machines are left to die as museum pieces. some that I have known to be over 150 years old, left to lose their luster within velvet ropes and a brand new brass plaques like a pretentious upstart telling of the old machines provenance as though to forget when machines were TRULY made which, truth be told, was itself wrought from machines that the museum curio had borne...from a bygone era.

I am from the land of the Colt pistol and once tried to save what would be described as a tool room lathe kept alive by a master craftsman restoring old Colt revolvers...The artificer died, and the machine is cruelly displayed in what was once an insurance company and now is a state owned building, humiliatingly displayed as it were in the "olden days" with a card board cut out of a factory worker strategically positioned at the hand wheel, only the rogues who designed the display have the wrong period picture of a worker (1930) on an 1800's machine...being oggled by ignoramus' who look at the display with romance of how it used to be for their progenitors missing the point of the display and not knowing what the machine is or what it's for...though they know it is an antique machine they don't understand that relic helped to change the world.

the best way to preserve such a machine or any machine as such is to keep it alive, keep it running (best way to preserve it is to keep it in a basement or garage shop...where it will always get use...and put it in the forefront of every finished and accomplished project so that it may live on as legendary. it lasted many generation and because of it's period build it can last many more. Which in itself will prove it's self worth.

So godspeed, mattinker, on your endeavor to get many use from your crown jewel of a machine.

Sorry people I just love old machines! I don't have one...YET.

Oh yeah, you can also "Steampunk it" hide all new stuff within period looking
shells, but with real metal such as:

[mattinker]

Well, I was a little surprised by the photos added by Praetor, although I agree with him about old machines, the photos, are a long way from my way of doing things!

The biggest problem that I have with my lathe project is that I often need to make something to be able to use something to make the final item! Well, today I made an angle bracket to mount my home-made dividing head on the new to me millilng machine! The dividing head will allow me to drill the 100 holes in the encoder plate. The angle bracket is 15mm plate, (the maximum that I can cut with my plasma cutter) arc welded. The dividing head is built around a 100 to 1 worm reduction gear, liberally adapted from the "Gingery" dividing head. So far I have only made one plate that has 36 holes, so ten spaces to a degree gives a pretty usable divisions! With a bit of luck, tomorrow I'll be able to cut out the disk and make the mounting piece to attach it to the dividing head.!

[mattinker]

Hi,

despite what I said yesterday, I didn't make the encoder disk that I said I would. I had forgotten that I'd dismantled the cross slide nut. So it seemed to me that as it was appart and it had to be done, I may as well do that first. The first picture that I took was too out of focus to post! I started by drilling two 4,2mm holes through the nut, parallel with the acme thread. I then drilled them out to 5mm for half of their length. The next step was to tap a 5mm 0,8 thread in the other half of the two holes. I then cut the nut in half, without halving the fixing post. I was amazed to find that when I reassembled the two halves with the 5mm screws, I had no adjustments to make! the play in the nut was exactly the thickness of the bandsaw blade! If need be, I'll solder the two pieces together, but I'll just use it for a while to see how it beds in. I find it hard to believe that I've eliminated the backlash without any fitting with a file!

The last pic is of the dividding head, ready to drill the encoder disk, the next job.


Matthew

[mattinker]

Hi,

I had a two miner set backs with the encoder wheel, which I didn't photograph, the first was a problem due to the disk deforming whilst cutting it out in the lathe, the second was a bearing that failed in my mill whilst preparing the set up for machining the encoder wheel.

The first problem was resolved with the help of several people on the Yahoo ELS (Electronic Lead Screw) Group. There were two sugestions, one was to sandwhich the disk with "sacrificial" plates whilst cutting it, as this would reduce stretch both when drilling and cutting, the other was to heat the steel plate to stress releave it. I had to wait a few days to get a new bearing which wasn't too expensive. It's pretty rowdy with it's two right angle drives, it's not in production use so it might stand up for a while.

Photo I
I decided to try an Al disk, 1,5mm thick screwed to an MDF spacer screwed to a steel disk to center it on the dividing head .
Photo 2
I fixed the Al in place with wood screws and washers in places that I thought wouldn't get in the way. As it turned out, some were pretty close which was a bit dumb, as I had to take them out to avoid breakage
Photo 3
I used a centre bit 2mm in diameter. Drilling the 100 holes, was very straight forward and not as boreing as I'd imagined! The dividing head is a 100/1 reduction, so one turn per hole, easy not to make mistakes!
Photo 4
To keep everything concentric, I decided to cut the disk on the dividing head, cutting the centre hole.
photo 5
I've also cut the slot for the single revolution sensor, the only thing that is essential for the ELS, the rest is for EMC2 which I may or may not use.
photo 6
Cutting out the disk.
photo 7
the final pic, is the wheel on the spindle of the lathe, there's no strech and no runout.

I realised after I'd finished and was feeling pretty pleased with myself, that I'd left too much metal around the periferie, the photo/intrupteurs would work on the outer holes, but wouldn't reach the single slot. It was easy to put the disk back onto the MDF as it had taken up the print, the single large slot acting as a clear referance. I had no trouble in reducing the outer edge and the edge of the slot. I Think it's going to be OK now. If I have a problem with it, I can allways make another one!