Solidworks intake manifold design problem

[Paul G. Swartz]

I've owned Solidworks since 1999, but I've never got much past the tutorial. I also have Surfcam (a surface modeler with CAM). I always revert back to it, because most of my products involve complex surfaces. Every time I try to use Solidworks, I get frustrated with my lack of control in creating and blending of the complex contoured surfaces.

I'm looking for someone who is familiar with designing automotive (V-6 or V-8) intake manifolds in Solidworks, or someone who is a car nut that understands the geometry of a manifold and is an expert user of Solidworks. I want to build a "master" design with dimension relations that allow me to create a design table to varry specific dimensions (such as runner length).

If I am convinced you can help me, I will be happy to pay for the specific training involved to achieve my goal. For now, I'm looking for feasabilty opinions.

[ckm]

I've actually designed a V8 manifold in SW, it's really not all that hard to do. If you have a version with all the tutorials, going through them will help you understand how to design a manifold. It may also be that SW is not the right tool for the way you think, and Rhino would be easier to grok.

However, the much bigger problem is actually getting it produced. This requires quite advanced casting capabilities, or some clever CNC machining. I've resorted to clever CNC machining to get what I want. Here's a thread with some other alternatives.

You should also consider some alternative fabrication strategies, such as making intake to head adaptors like these, but coupling them to widely available aluminum tubing, such as the stuff from Burns Stainless, which in turn can be coupled to throttle plates et. al. Also consider carbon fiber, such as this one or this one. Finally, you should see if the components from Ross Machining can help you achieve your goals.

Knowing a little more about what you are trying to do would help understand the best way to approach the problem.

HTH,

Chris.

[--colin--]

Paul,

I started with SW by taking a community college class a couple years ago. That was the best solution for me. I tryed to self learn 3D CAD using ACAD but was getting noware. By taking a formal class it instills the disapline to follow a programmed learning path and devote the time needed to attend classes and do one's homework. I don't think I'd have gotten this far on my own.

Since then, I've designed and built a CNC router and a couple miniature engines. I'm working with a friend to build a full size replica of the Mercury space capsule, plus doing some commercial automotive products for a local speed shop. All using SW. With that said, I'd be interested in potentially working with you on your manifold. I consider myself an experienced SW designer, but not an expert in complex blended surfaces. However, it is something I'd like to learn more about and have the time to devote to it. I can assist you at no cost until you believe my work is productive for you - they we can revisit costs.

Send me a private message if interested and I'll send you some examples of my work.

Rgds,
--Colin--

[JerryFlyGuy]

Paul, I'd be interested in helping you. I'm not a self proclaimed expert in SW, but I have taken all of their design courses and have done several airplanes which were fairly complex. I'm interested in cars and rodding to some extent, and do understand most of the simplistic side of manifolds.

Do you have a starting point and a finish point for your manifold? ie; a decent drawing of the intake ports and their geometry on your motor? Do you know some of the volume's and profiles you want in your manifold? Do you know your carb flange or throttle body flange dimensions and where you want to place it in relation to the engine/head's?

Jerry [looking for a new challenge ]

[Paul G. Swartz]

Thanks to all for your replies. I'll give you more details to help understand where I'm at in both this project, and in my current capabilities in general.

First, let me be clear. I have existing designs (Surfcam surface models) and an existing method for manufacture. I've been producing complete manifolds for the past year and manifold parts for several years. I'm only seeking to improve my DESIGN PROCESS. My manufacturing process and design specifics are my competetive edge. Consequently, I am reluctant to share specific details in these areas. I can tell you this, it is a drag race application with a configuration similar to a sheetmetal "tunnel ram". The design has NO compromises for manufacturing. The only planar surfaces are the flanges. The runner geometry alone is very complex but in a subtle way. I have an established method to create the geometry in Surfcam. Every manifold is designed and built for a specific engine, and I don't mean a specific engine combination...I mean ONE engine.

I don't want to blow my own horn, but I think it's neccessary to quickly run down my resume'. I also wish to know some details of your education and experince to determine if we're on the same page. I have a BSME, but all of my tech electives were manufacturing classes. I worked as a manufacturing engineer for a major aircraft manufacturer for 10 years...mostly CNC multi-axis mill programming. I then worked for an automotive aftermarket manufacturer for one year before starting my own business. I started as a CNC programming service for aircraft job shops, and I slowly developed my own product line of racing components. This is my 10th year in business, and now I only design and manufacture my own products exclusively for two professional race teams. I'm a one man show...I do all of the design as well as the manufacturing of my products. The manufacturing used to be my bottleneck. With all of the mfg bugs worked out, the design process is now my constraint for taking on more customers.

I've never used a parametric solid modeler on a daily basis, but I fully understand the potential benefits. I've used several CAD/CAM systems over the years, all surface modelers with most of my experience on Surfcam.

[JerryFlyGuy]

Paul, I'm impressed! Which aircraft company did you work for? I currently work full time as a Solidworks Draftsman/designer for a basic Steel fab shop in Canada. We're into oilfield equipment as well as some industrial and agricultural manufacture. I don't think there is a conflict there

I've been running Solidworks since about this time in 2002, as a sole operator for our company. I'm continually working w/ model's and assemblys which are several thousands components deep. I've also worked a bit on my own designs. All of which are related to aircraft. You can see some of my work here http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpo...04&postcount=8. That particular model was built using conventional [how they did it before computers- history note- The P-51 was the first a/c to benifit from this design style] conic's inside SW. It has over 80 algebraic equations controlling about 30 fuse stations. The basic 'roundness' of the fuse is controled via a sliding spline sketch. By adjusting the spline the various fuse stations will transition from a parabolic to a hyperbolic shape.. or anywhere in between. It's a bit hard to explain on here .. but it works pretty well.

I have to admit that I don't know 'all there is' about manifold designing, nor the how's or why's. This may be a detriment, or it may be a good thing. It's all in how you look at it I guess.

If I can help you, let me know!

Jerry

[--colin--]

Paul,

I understood you original intensions, that you wanted to learn how to design your manifolds with a parametric modeler. I've used SurfCam04 a bit, but mostly just for machining Solidworks models using the CAM side of SurfCam. I really can't imagine doing CAD design with SurfCam. The only 3D modeler I've used is Solidworks and find it hard to relate to non-parametric modeling. I certainly appreciate your desire to use design tables to drive your designs.

I've done tool and equipment design for many years on the drawing board back in the 70's & 80's. I also managed a model shop before leaving to finish my engineering degree. After finishing my Mfg Engineering degree, I've spent most of my career as equipment, process and project engineers in the semiconductor industry. I've always dabbled at design, but not much professionally after finishing college. Having been a designer, I always felt the "designers" were underappreciated. In the semiconductor industry, most were non-degreed and if they had a degree, they usually aspired to be "engineers" :-)

I always though that learing 3D design would be fun and perhaps provide some income and fun projects during my retirement. That's where I'm at now. I spend a lot of time with my hobbies and the amount of work I'm doing is small. I've recently been working with a local speed shop developing a supercharger kit for Dodge hemi engines. Most of that design is pretty straight forward and doesn't involve complex curvy surfaces however.

I'd like to see your manifold design and be glad to provide some inputs on how it could be done using SW.

Rgds,
--Colin--

[biomed_eng]

Paul,

Will you be at SEMA?

You will love using SolidWorks for that project. I am on 2006 and surfacing is SOOO much better than in past versions (although still not as good as other surfacing packages). I hear 2007 is even better for surfacing but I won't touch it 'till SP3 or so.

The best way to get turorials is from a local specialist be it a friend/reseller etc. Maybe you could trade machining time for their SW tutoring time.