solidworks purchasing

[stepperhead]

whoa MR. Wilkins do we really need to use such insulting language? analogies are never exactly representing the problem at hand. but they are useful at giving us alternative view points to the problem. having an argument in this forum is like watching golf on TV whilst drinking molasses. (get what I mean?). please refrain from flaming others into hackle raising cock fights.

I just visited your knife site. did you use solidworks to design those? did you use a cnc machine? and what cam did you use? It looks like your business would have no problem purchasing these high end programs at 2000 dollars a knife. and that is great but how did you get started? did cad/cam come first or did your love of knives lead you to cad/cam? did you have to raise your prices in order to implement all the computer stuff???
It appears that you live in Germany, what are the laws like to do with sharing in your country, is this a hot topic in Germany also?

A little history lets me know who I am talking to, thanks.

cnc lurker, do you use solidworks? or have you used it? It is just too bad that I ever touched solidworks as now I have a taste for it. It would be hard for me to make a step down. It is like eating chocolate cake all the time and then having to settle for sugar free bran muffins. (there I go with the analogies)

mac

[Chrliev]

Kevin,

Is it really difficult for you to understand that anything that is popular is more valuable than something that is not popular?

I do not advocate the stealing of Porsches or anything else for that matter, I only make the statement that popularity increases value. It should not be difficult to understand this reality...

As for comparing the stealing of tangible property to the copying (stealing?) of software. The person who had their software copied is not deprived of using the software and would not lose money by having to replace it.

I do not support the wide spread use of pirated software as this would limit the amount of development that software companies were able to expend on new innovation due to a loss of revenues.

Having said that though, I still believe that software piracy increases the user base of the pirated software. Our subject Mac would have no knowledge of SolidWorks if he did not have a pirated copy of the software. As this is a subject that he is very interested in, it is very likely that he will eventually (I hope) turn to using a legally licensed copy of the software. Thus one cannot really equate software piracy to Grand Theft Auto...

Mac, I for one like the analogies so keep them coming. This is a good discussion all things being equal software piraters are engaging in illegal activity but they are not really in the same class of law breakers (criminals?) as car thieves.

Call me names if it is in your nature to do so, I don't really care. I live and work in the real world, not some make believe Utopia.

Anyone else...?

Ps. Very nice knives Herr Wilkins, you sir are a true craftsman...

[BurrMan]

As for comparing the stealing of tangible property to the copying (stealing?) of software. The person who had their software copied is not deprived of using the software and would not lose money by having to replace it.

The guy who owns the computer you take it from is not the one you owe the money to...

Thus one cannot really equate software piracy to Grand Theft Auto...

Of course you can! But your not stealing "My car"... It's the equivalent of going to the FORD FACTORY and stealing the cars from there,(Or worse yet, the dealers lot, who is in it to make a living also) and telling them, "It's ok... More people will buy fords now and I may buy one some day too!!! You should thank me!!!

Someone asked about my softwares and income and such?

I get paid. I have many softwares I use for various tasks. I dont own solidworks... I cant afford it.. (yet) I can "testdrive" it any time i want to.. There are vast resources that provide this. There are plenty of options for me with this regard. I'de bet that by the time i own it, I'll be better at using it than 75% of the people using it today..(This goes to the charactor thing I mentioned)

My first software?

Hahahaha. My first one was a program named Ray Dream. It's a poly modeler. I then moved to NURBS based systems when we started to machine parts. This first purchase cost me "2 months pay." It hurt, but i choked it down because i had a dream. Funny, today you can get it's current predecessor for free in a magazine!

What kind of stuff do I make?

Right now I'm working on an internal component for a 100 year old lock that has no parts avaiable here anymore.. Fairly simple stuff.. I recently made a "goat boy" that was machinable.. Do you want to see a picture of it?

[CNC Lurker]

cnc lurker, do you use solidworks? or have you used it? It is just too bad that I ever touched solidworks as now I have a taste for it. It would be hard for me to make a step down. It is like eating chocolate cake all the time and then having to settle for sugar free bran muffins. (there I go with the analogies)

mac

Been using SW for 40 hours/week for several years now. There are some tools we don't use, such as mold tools and surfaces, but I don't get stumped very often.

[Hirudin]

Just FYI: If you think CAD software is expensive, just wait until you see some CAM prices!

If your goal is to start cutting parts legally and ethically I would suggest you look for software that you can afford. Alibre is probably your best bet. I think they may even have a free version available (I'm not sure what the prerequisites are to get it). I don't know their current pricing, but several months ago they had a sale where you could get it for $100 - an absolute steal (of the legal variety ). Although I own Alibre I haven't actually tried it yet. I bought it during that sale but have yet to install it... LOL I certainly don't think the SolidWorks to Alibre stepdown is analogous to chocolate cake:bran muffins. It's probably more like... chocolate cake made from scratch and day-old chocolate cake made from a box.

I'm not trying to preach or push my current morals onto you. I'm just saying that buying CAD software is just the beginning of the costs you'll incur. As I mentioned before the CAM software is very expensive too (SolidCAM is easily several thousand dollars, I spent $6000 on my seat).

IF you are willing to be unethical (or you don't subscribe to the same ethics as the majority of active members of this forum) I would suggest you refrain from advertising your behavior that others would frown upon. Simple, obvious advice: take it or leave it.

[Chrliev]

Good advice Hirudin.

I originally used a software product called NCL from NCCS
5 axis cam software & postprocessor with highspeed machining. NCL has the best 4 and 5 axis software that I have ever seen, but it is unweildy for 2 or 3 axis work which is now 95% of what I do, the price then (1980's) was $35,000. I also have 3 axis MasterCam (somewhere) which I no longer us, its cost is about $7,000

Currently I use SurfCam full 5 axis version, with 3 axis TrueMill. TrueMill is an amazing 3 axis software. The price of the full version that I have is over $15,000, though I think that the 3 axis version is about $10,000.

SurfCam is true CAD/CAM as I can create the same surface models and drawings that I can create in SolidWorks though SurfCam does not support assemblies.

I use SolidWorks for drawings and assemblies, often I combine SolidWorks surface modeling capabilities with SurfCams 3d wireframes as SurfCam recognizes native SolidWorks models. In this way I can create complex CNC programs, using this combination there is nothing that I can not model and machine, with the softwares ability and my experience at writing my own post-processors, there is no CNC machine that I cannot create a program for.

SurfCam has a free demo version which is fully capable but does not allow the creation of tool path but it does allow you to fully try the software before you buy it. Hint: If you are creative enough it will do a lot of trig calculation and even give you tool path start and end points, allowing a very crafty person to get something for nothing legally...!

If you are interested check it out at:

Register for SURFCAM Student/Demo Learning Version

I used to be an independent rep for them years ago, I have no financial stake in their products now but here is a free try it before you buy it opportunity if anyone is interested...

Charlie V

[CNC Lurker]

I just visited your knife site. did you use solidworks to design those? did you use a cnc machine? and what cam did you use? It looks like your business would have no problem purchasing these high end programs at 2000 dollars a knife. and that is great but how did you get started? did cad/cam come first or did your love of knives lead you to cad/cam? did you have to raise your prices in order to implement all the computer stuff???
It appears that you live in Germany, what are the laws like to do with sharing in your country, is this a hot topic in Germany also?

Out of curiosity, I looked at the knives. Is that Damascus steel or are they etched?

A pair of those folders will cost more than my CNC router build

Impressive nonetheless.

[Chris Booth]

Stepperhead,

it's one thing to become proficient at using a good and well-known 3D CAD software and quite another to consider yourself a designer capable of being a freelance designer.

3D CAD is a very valuable tool for designers but the shapes they make with them are backed up by knowledge about exactly why the parts in their designs end up being the shape they are. This is waht CNC Lurker is referring to when he says "Some companies require ANSI or other standard, as well as having knowledge in there field, whether mechanical, structural, or a niche field such as sheet metal."

So being proficient at CAD and having the knowledge of a wide or niche field is a minimum.
If you're in CNC and have direct experience taking designs and making them into parts then that may be enough - people that could cover from being shown a design on a piece of paper to handing the finished part over are undoubdtedly of interest to employers.

Helocat's suggestion of buying Alibre instead is also a good suggestion. Alibre is a good software and basically a better deal price/quality - but SolidWorks has that big user base and is sometimes exactly what employers have identified they want their collaborators to be working with.

My advice would be to keep hold of the money and look for the work first. If you find someone who will give you work using SolidWorks, buy SolidWorks. If you find someone who will give you work and they don't mind what format it comes in, buy Alibre or something similar (maybe you could design with Sketchup).

Apart from all that, remember that SolidWorks works on an annual update basis, and being a player who can interchange SolidWorks files with other SolidWorks users comes with a lot of pressure to update annually, since there's no backward compatability between files from different vesions of SolidWorks.

Hope this has been helpful...

[na94]

Just a little food for thought:

Everyone likes how Chinese imports has made machining more affordable as a hobby, right?

Ever think about what software Chinese tool designers use, and what they pay for it?

[BurrMan]

Just a little food for thought:

Everyone likes how Chinese imports has made machining more affordable as a hobby, right?

Wrong!!!!

[stepperhead]

Hirudin - I took your advice and downloaded a trial version of alibre. the 'It's probably more like... chocolate cake made from scratch and day-old chocolate cake made from a box' analogy did it for me. Thanks

Cnc lurker - 40 hrs a week on solidworks! awesome. I'm jealous. Do you use any other CAD. and do you work for a company or yourself?



Chris Booth - great advice, I was already thinking of this one. There is a machine shop in town that I would love to work for, I am going to find out what software they use...
you said that solidworks has backward compatibility problems, How so? like if one user had parts built they may not be compatible with older version users? Would this problem exist with other cad programs? And on the topic of compatibility how compatible are different cad programs with each other.

na94 - china! they don't recognize any copyright laws, so technically they are not stealing if they stay in their own country. correct?

[stepperhead]

I almost forgot....


thanks all of you. you are really helping my thought process.