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Thread: Need help setting up and building 5 axis from scratch

  1. #1

    Default Need help setting up and building 5 axis from scratch

    Hello everyone,


    I have some serious questions regarding to choose a sinumerik 840d SL for my new machine.

    I have been digging through the information about sinumerik for the past 10 hours and still don't understand what parts I am going to need to drive the machine.

    Second I want to be able to program my own macros to perform various functions like unloading or loading the table and such before the CNC takes control. I have been going through numerous control software to see what fits from mach3 to linuxcnc to fanuc and Siemens. I have read that Siemens can be considered the rolls Royce under the controllers so I am inclined to go this way.

    BUT I want to build and design the machine itself and understand every part. Using machines is not a problem it is what I have been doing now for 2 years but my company grows and I need to grow along so I need to be able to create my own machines and write postprocessors for it for mastercam. Mastercam so it seems already has a postpro for the sinumerik 840d SL so that helps.

    Sorry for the lengthy information but my questions are quite profound.

    1. First of all what hardware of Siemens do I need to build the entire controller? I have been reading through everything and kind make it up, sorry if that seems stupid but I am really not.

    2. I don't want a screen at the machine, just a computer so how does that work with the sinumerik?

    3. What control software should be on the computer to communicate with the sinumerik 840d sl
    (Ref to mach3 and Mach3 breakout board for simplicity)

    4. What's the deal with the basic packet: sinumerik 840d SL + sinamics120 . Says there can drive up to 6 axis. So how does this connect? I can throwout my leadshine drivers and connect servo to this hardware?

    5. Would this packet be enough as controller and drivers of motors? Can the rest be handled by my own PC and 3rd party servo motors?


    My budget for this new machine is 12000 USD for just the controllers, motors and lineair guides. Machine size will be workable area 600 by 600 mm, machining aluminium parts.

    I really hope someone will go through this and help me with an on-topic answer.

    Thanks in advance.

    Stephane



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  2. #2
    Member hanermo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need help setting up and building 5 axis from scratch

    I suspect You are a bit over Your head ...

    Have You ever built a machine for industrial or workshop use ?

    The last thing You need to worry about at this point in time, is the controller.

    Can You make the machine mechanically ?
    A 60x60 cm 5 axis machine == HAAS UMC at 100k$, more or less.

    Can you make a machine of this size, using similar sized or more robust components,
    of same or heavier weight ?

    Can You make it in a reasonable time-frame ?
    and how do You know this.

    It is pretty hard to make a VMC, 3-axis.
    Making a 5-axis machine is harder. A lot harder.

    The problem is rigidity, and avoiding chatter.
    Both are easily solved by using much heavier components, of much greater accuracy ...
    but this leads to Very High Costs.

    All above is only relevant in the context of *company*, and work use, leading me to see this as a profit-making venture.
    Thus, You will need to use real spindles (ISO30 or up in size) with drawbars and toolchangers,
    real spindle motors (ac servos, or perhaps VFD/3-phase).

    Sorry I did not answer about the Sinumerik stuff, as such.



  3. #3

    Default Re: Need help setting up and building 5 axis from scratch

    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    I suspect You are a bit over Your head ...

    Have You ever built a machine for industrial or workshop use ?

    The last thing You need to worry about at this point in time, is the controller.

    Can You make the machine mechanically ?
    A 60x60 cm 5 axis machine == HAAS UMC at 100k$, more or less.

    Can you make a machine of this size, using similar sized or more robust components,
    of same or heavier weight ?

    Can You make it in a reasonable time-frame ?
    and how do You know this.

    It is pretty hard to make a VMC, 3-axis.
    Making a 5-axis machine is harder. A lot harder.

    The problem is rigidity, and avoiding chatter.
    Both are easily solved by using much heavier components, of much greater accuracy ...
    but this leads to Very High Costs.

    All above is only relevant in the context of *company*, and work use, leading me to see this as a profit-making venture.
    Thus, You will need to use real spindles (ISO30 or up in size) with drawbars and toolchangers,
    real spindle motors (ac servos, or perhaps VFD/3-phase).

    Sorry I did not answer about the Sinumerik stuff, as such.
    Hi hanermo,


    Thanks for the expected answer 😁😁😁😁😁😁

    Ok. I am everything except in over my head. The mechanical and electrical building is not the problem. I have build 2 machines before. But mach3 controlled.

    The only thing I am not proficient in yet is this controller stuff for Siemens.

    I can build the machine for a total of 30000 USD. (All new, China involved) China doesn't build it, I go to a factory there and they build under my supervision following my exact design. When machine is finished the entire design will be found on grabcad for anyone to use.

    My problem so far has been postprocessors so I have been studying like hell on c++ programming for the past 4 months. I can honestly say. Programming: check 👍

    I have access to cam-post for writing my postpro start points.

    (Motors, backlash, rigidity, tool change, accuracy,... NOT the problem) problem is controller!

    I hope this clarifies I am well aware of what I do, if u don't believe it, than please just trust me 😂. Time frame for up and running is about 9 months. (Including transportation of about 10 weeks)

    So back to sinumerik, I hope.

    Regards,

    Stephane

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  4. #4

    Default Re: Need help setting up and building 5 axis from scratch

    As far as I see it, there is only one real problem when building a machine. The first thing to address. A flawlessly working postprocessor for it! Or u end up with a very nice looking bunch of useless steel. 😁

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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Need help setting up and building 5 axis from scratch

    Fair enough S* ... hope it works out for You.
    30k$ US seems borderline light ... but maybe doable.

    Some corner cases to take into account .. imo, ime, ..

    Are you planning on planetaries for the rotary axes ?

    Do You know how much torque You need ? Look at the commercial ones.
    About 100 Nm, thats how much.
    Per rotary axis.
    Look at the resolutions on commercial rotaries, guaranteed 0.001 degrees, for only 0.025 mm TIR.

    Because the moment arm on 60x60 cm is huge, even at only maybe 20 kgf (200 Nm) push force (maybe 1 kW at spindle).
    And it can be upto 200 Nm x 200 Nm torque.
    The torque requirements can and often do multiply vs add, in 5 axis machining.

    I have no doubt a somewhat well-built semi-commercial machine can machine alu, in 5-axis configs.
    To an extent.
    Just pointing out that is is likely, I think, that it will only do so-so to well in very light HSM machining with small end mills, and very low cutting forces at the tooltip.

    For say a 200 mm work cube the forces go down about 200x, or 2000%.

    The whole thing is based on physics, called the error stack.
    And that is error/rigidity per axis power of 5.

    A 60 cm work cube 5 axis machine for steel is 15 metric tons in mass.
    Alu is much (3x) easier, but still..

    Suggestion:
    Look at Hermle for examples.
    Look for a Hermle 60 cm work area machine, mass, technicals.

    Example:
    The biggest rotary HAAS makes is 300 mm in D, more or less.
    HAAS TR310, is 470 Nm peak torque, 780 kg mass.
    Rotary only.
    1300 Nm peak torque.
    It might be more or less ok for alu at 600 mm work area, or double the diameter, but a minimal basis for a design, imo, ime.

    Doubling the radius, increases needed forces by 2 pwr 3 = 8 times.
    And then cubed for a 5 axis.

    Just saying..
    The linear guides and servos as-components are trivial as such, and just need to be big and rigid enough.

    I saw several 5-axis machines with similar work envelopes, in workshops here in Spain.
    They were in the 15 metric tons range in mass.
    And usually working in alu, for aircraft parts.

    And the machine frame was typically about 4-6 m wide, and so on..
    The discontinued HAAS VR8 was 12.293 kg, 5 axis.
    For 760 mm vertical Z axis work area.

    As-is Your timeframe seems good to me, and the planning is realistic on it´s own.
    The budget at 30k+12k seems light, but..

    A top-end siemens control is mentioned at about 12-15k$ on its own, hw costs only, based on multiple comments elsewhere from experienced people.
    And the learning curve is significant, months.
    An integrator might charge 50-80k$ for the control, + post, only.
    And be competitive.

    The cheapest Siemens stuff seems to be 4-5k$, hw only, control only with needed "bits".
    I have no details, just going on what others doing commercial work, that I trust, have mentioned in passing.
    Add servos + any cables etc. You might need.



  6. #6

    Default Re: Need help setting up and building 5 axis from scratch

    Thx hanermo, I follow your meaning. But it doesn't help me to solve the current problem.

    I can get the sinumerik 840d SL PLC for 700 USD. My question is what else do I need.

    Integrator will be myself. I will write and develop the post by meself. I have time plenty on my hands.

    I am looking for a comprehensive answer of what different components the sinumerik requires to function and for example, clear picture schematics to get the idea what controls what and how things are connected

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  7. #7

    Default Re: Need help setting up and building 5 axis from scratch

    And I am talking about working area 600x600mm so I will never get a machine of 6 meter in length. Total weight will be about 2000 kg. Which would be sufficient for aluminium and wood processing.


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    Default Re: Need help setting up and building 5 axis from scratch

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanisk View Post
    And I am talking about working area 600x600mm so I will never get a machine of 6 meter in length. Total weight will be about 2000 kg. Which would be sufficient for aluminium and wood processing.


    Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk
    I think when you come down to Earth, you will find the cost of the sinumerik 840d 5 axes control between $8000.000 and $16,000.00 Plus, will not be an option for you, the PLC is only a small part of your machine control

    There are many controls that will do just as good a job as the sinumerik control at a fraction of the cost

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Need help setting up and building 5 axis from scratch

    why don't you send inquiry directly to siemens. They have tech support for such things

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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Need help setting up and building 5 axis from scratch

    I feel it really will not work - for 5 axis - at 2000 kg - for 600 x 600 mm work area.

    The problem is the racking forces on the rotary axes.
    Look at this for HAAS UMC750.
    Haas UMC-750 | Haas Automation

    UMC750 will only take 300 kg max on table.
    Your alu blanks will be heavier than 300 kg.
    You are contemplating making a bigger machine than that !

    A larger work cube needs MORE ! torque than the HAAS at 407 / 542 Nm.
    The UMC is 500 mm limit.
    Well it really needs rigidity, but the torque requirements show what I mean numerically.

    The problem is vibration on the rotaries.
    If the rotaries vibrate/chatter, you cannot use carbide endmills, because they chatter and break instantly.

    The smaller-capacity HAAS UMC 750 is 8500 kg.
    Its 3.5 m high, at max extension.

    Look at how high the machine must be, to rotate a 600 mm cube on its side, so you can mill at 90 degrees.
    You need 600 mm clearance (300 mm in work cube / 2 + 300 mm ? max workpiece height), plus spindle nose, ISO30 toolholder, collet, tool.
    Tool maybe 200 mm, perhaps more, max, for long reach milling.
    So perhaps 600 + 150 + 200 = 950 mm clearance in z axis.

    A 600x600x300 work cube really needs (300 + 300) x 1.4 to clear the corner, 840 mm, + the 350 mm for tooling, 1190 mm z axis movement.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanisk View Post
    And I am talking about working area 600x600mm so I will never get a machine of 6 meter in length. Total weight will be about 2000 kg. Which would be sufficient for aluminium and wood processing.

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  11. #11

    Default Re: Need help setting up and building 5 axis from scratch

    Hanermo, this is an interesting post from you with good info.

    Let me explain in detail about what I am going to do first. I will build a desktop scale model of the machine based upon a commercial machine. This to get the complete software working and controller.

    The replies I get is cost, cost, cost apparently nobody has been personally in China like I have where it is clear that prices are absolutely not that high. The profit margin on commercial machines is more than 100℅, which makes sense you don't sell a machine everyday. So a Haas of 100k USD will cost in China more or less 40k to produce. Well if than you look for a little lighter components you get to 30k easily.

    So again sinumerik control doesn't cost 8000 to 16000 USD. At all in manufacturing price!

    All I need to know is what makes up an entire controller. And I have mailed to Siemens and I am still waiting for an answer. It has been over a week.

    I am memorising this post though on clearance and the rigidity of the rotaries.
    Thx for that



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  12. #12

    Default Re: Need help setting up and building 5 axis from scratch

    Oh and I am always super interested in which controllers would do just as fine as sinumerik BUT they need to be commercial and supported by mastercam and cam-post

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  13. #13
    Member hanermo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need help setting up and building 5 axis from scratch

    1.
    Thanks !!
    I am only trying to help.

    2.
    EXCELLENT PLAN !

    3.
    I have worked extensively with China for 20+ years.
    Been there.
    Import from them all the time.
    Have been doing wholesale and import stuff for 20+ years.

    4.
    Does not work like that.
    it really does not.
    Really.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanisk View Post
    1.
    Hanermo, this is an interesting post from you with good info.

    Let me explain in detail about what I am going to do first.
    2.
    I will build a desktop scale model of the machine based upon a commercial machine. This to get the complete software working and controller.

    3.
    The replies I get is cost, cost, cost apparently nobody has been personally in China like I have where it is clear that prices are absolutely not that high. The profit margin on commercial machines is more than 100℅, which makes sense you don't sell a machine everyday.

    4.
    So a Haas of 100k USD will cost in China more or less 40k to produce. Well if than you look for a little lighter components you get to 30k easily.


    I am memorising this post though on clearance and the rigidity of the rotaries.
    Thx for that



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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Need help setting up and building 5 axis from scratch

    My very first post related to commercial machines !

    Examples, costs.

    In commercial machines, the ballscrews must last a long time.
    1.
    They must be very rigid (thick) and
    (50 mm for this use, or more)
    Must be- due to error stack on error power of five.

    2. accurate (ground).
    C0 or C1 quality.
    Must be- due to error stack on error power of five.

    3.
    The end-support bearings must be P4 or better quality.
    Must be- due to error stack on error power of five.

    A commercial TBI 32 mm ballscrew in this size is about 200$ wholesale, 250$ with basic support blocks.
    Good, cheap, taiwan or china.
    Say 350 $ for 50 mm.

    The same sized 32 mm screw is == 800 $, ground, C3, basic precision.
    Approx 1200$, ground, C0,
    That is what You want/need.
    The difference is approx 4:1 vs basic commercial stuff.

    A chinese P4 bearing, 40 mm D, is approx 200$, wholesale.

    A good bearing block support is approx 300-400$, china, surface ground, preloaded, with real P4 bearings, for a 50 mm screw.
    The basic commercial chinese bearing block is about 50$.
    But it uses auto-bearings, not AC bearings.
    And not AC precision bearings.
    What You must have is about 600-800% more expensive than basic stuff.

    About 2000€ in EU or 2000$ in the USA.
    Bearing block only.

    The 50 mm screw is == 3000-4000€ in europe, THK/INO/etc in C0, one off.
    Blocks, add 2500€ in the USA / EU.

    My point:
    Imho, what I expect is happening.
    Your components are far too small.
    The precision of your components is far too small.

    Yes, china is 3-4x cheaper than THK USA or THK/Hiwin EU.

    So, a single good, precision, axis of 50 mm D on screw is == 6000 $ / 5000 € THK, and 1500$ in china.

    I wholesale and import this stuff globally.

    A 32 mm screw support block, normally, has 2 6205 auto bearings in it (iirc, nr may be wrong from memory).
    P4 bearings need precision ground or honed holes to work.
    P2 accuracy bearings need 0/-3 microns accuracies in 7210AC-DUP-P2 in bore.
    Have 1 on my desk.

    Hint.
    I have scratch built a mill of 1600 x 500 mm capacity, a VMC.
    4 times, going on 5 now.
    Took 15.000 work hours, so far.

    Hope this helps..



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    Default Re: Need help setting up and building 5 axis from scratch

    In Short you need just power supply and the servo drives use Siemens then no issue for integration you will get screen and keyboard with it so if you are that far no issues ( I don't believe the 700 usd ) because you will need licenses per axis >3 ( here in Europe) at any cam software you can get an postprocessor for sinumeric , .... but what do you gain ?


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    Default Re: Need help setting up and building 5 axis from scratch

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanisk View Post

    So again sinumerik control doesn't cost 8000 to 16000 USD. At all in manufacturing price!

    All I need to know is what makes up an entire controller. And I have mailed to Siemens and I am still waiting for an answer. It has been over a week.
    They most likely won't answer, as they only use licensed and Siemens certified installers

    If they do you are in for a shock as the price I gave you was from 2010, $ 700 is not going to buy much at all, unless you have found something used, the Prices I have seen in 2016 have been from $18,000 to $35,000 for the end user, that is installed and running,all the top controls cost around the same amount 5 axes is not cheap to do, a control that is less expensive and very good is Softservo is worth a look, this you would use Yaskawa servo drives and motors, It would still be in the $3000 to $5000 range just for the control

    Soft Servo Systems | Motion Control

    Any control is compatible with Cam software you want to use, you just have the Post Processor changed/adjusted to suit how you want your machine to run

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Need help setting up and building 5 axis from scratch-s-140m_cutting_datasheet-pdf  
    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Need help setting up and building 5 axis from scratch

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanisk View Post

    1. First of all what hardware of Siemens do I need to build the entire controller? I have been reading through everything and kind make it up, sorry if that seems stupid but I am really not.

    2. I don't want a screen at the machine, just a computer so how does that work with the sinumerik?

    3. What control software should be on the computer to communicate with the sinumerik 840d sl
    (Ref to mach3 and Mach3 breakout board for simplicity)

    4. What's the deal with the basic packet: sinumerik 840d SL + sinamics120 . Says there can drive up to 6 axis. So how does this connect? I can throwout my leadshine drivers and connect servo to this hardware?

    5. Would this packet be enough as controller and drivers of motors? Can the rest be handled by my own PC and 3rd party servo motors?
    Hi there,

    I'll try to share some info from my own experience. I have built some odd custom machines with Siemens hardware, so I can't speak to how to do this for specifically a mill or lathe, but others have posted about the mechanical and stability/hardware requirements.

    1. To address the hardware, the 840d sl is an entire package. I am sure you can part out the items you want. The HMI with associated hardware buttons, as well as the typical control panel (another bank of buttons) are nice to have but not essential. Here is my list of minimums:

    AC Portion:

    You will need at minimum a line filter and a line reactor + fused protection on mains.

    DC Portion: Any 24VDC will work with enough current capacity to handle whatever IO you have and what the NCU requires. 10amp should be sufficient for most machines. Maybe 5 if your IO is small.

    Controller Portion:
    You will need at minimum:
    A Line Module. Comes in 3 flavors, basic, smart and active. This takes in the 3 phase AC, rectifices to 600VDC and is then fed to the motor modules who PWM it out to the motors per phase. Or something. You need one though.

    The NCU itself. This will contain a 300 series PLC, the NCU, and a bunch of other integrated electronics, HMI code, etc etc etc.

    Then 2 DMMs, or Dual Motor Modules (for six axes total) and a single motor module.

    So that is AC filtering/reactor, DC Converter, Line Module, NCU, and Motor Modules. Take a look at this recommended topography. Also here is a graphic of the product overview for hardware. Not you do not need everything in here...just what I have mentioned for one way to set it up.

    2. The HMI they offer is nice to have as it has many premapped buttons for machine functionality that you might not be aware of without years of digging through their manuals on what you CAN do in terms of HMI. Luckily they main HMI program is stored in the NCU and not actually on the small computer on the back of the HMI (a PCU or TCU).

    You have a number of network ports on the NCU (cat 5 or profinet). They are for the profinet network (x2), HMI/control surface network, "Company Network", and Service port. On the service port you can upload PLC / HMI programs. You can write these in whatever you want...I think the software to use / alter Siemens screens is called "My HMI Screens" or something horrible. Call your disti and ask for details about software for HMI Operate screen manipulation. Alternatively you can write whatever application you want and have it communicate over OPC UA to swap data structs back and forth. It is a pretty easy pipe to open, I use s7.net and it works great. The hard part is really reingineering what the 840D system is meant to do out of the box without the benefit of knowing it. There are dozens of thousands of paramterized variables that you will have access to. If you are a great manual mole, go ahead...but I sure would dread that task. Other options like Labview are also an option. My opinion here is, you are already paying for all the HMI code and functionality when you buy the NCU. Why not use it? Any HMI that is profinet capable should work to display output that is already stored from the factory.

    3. As mentioned above, you can just use any old PC, or really even an arduino. s7.net is a great toolkit to open a pipe and a network cable to x127 or x130 (ncu ports). Then you can just read/write to anywhere with direct addressing, and inderect with a little more effort. I've never seen a mach3, but it looks like a really cheap tiny thing that does something vaguely similar to an 840d. You can just plug your laptop into the 840 and program it with Step7, and once the PLC is programmed and everything is commissioned, bash bits around like crazy with a couple lines of C#.

    4. The Sinumerik is the control Unit portion of the S120 system. Here is the sort of product map. The motor drive modules have a few connection points. 5 wired AC outputs out of the bottom, 600VDC rails strapped across the front, some 24VDC electronic supplys, and a bunch of CAT5 ports up top that siemens refers to as "Drive Cliq". Basically you jumper coms back to the NCU with them, and plug the motor encoder as well (there is no back plane attachments). In addition a few ports for enable / inhibit bits for each motor module (2 per rack unit). Again, the PLC is integrated into the NCU, so to do useful stuff, you plug into the NCU over cat5, program the PLC / HMI with Step 7. Everything else regarding comissioning / setup / operation can be done from the provided HMI screens. There is free software that you can grab that will bring up what the HMI is doing inside a regular windows screen with just the IP address of the NCU (which is its own DHCP server that you will be a client of when plugged in).

    5. Yes. You will likely need to terminate your own ends. The output power from the motor module have a specific connector that you can order from them stand alone or prewired with a non terminated end. The encoder cable goes into the control with profinet which is like a 4 wire cat 5 looking thing. You can use regular cat 5 though. That part on correctly terminating all your ends depending on what servo motors you use may be a bit of a pain to get correct.

    Additional: IF there is any IO in the system that is not strictly a motor (limit switches for example, or e-stops, etc) then you will need some form of IO block. For siemens this is the ET200 series of profinet/bus modules.

    PS: Getting a step 7 license will be required if you need to program the PLC to do anything interesting I think. I don't really know what they do out of the box with zero PLC code. They'll do basic CNC type stuff, but again see note on IO or file handling, etc etc. At a bare minimum you will have to commission them, which means using step 7 to correctly configure the hardware / firmware / IP addresses and device names.

    PPS: Depending on what you want to do, as others have mentioned there maybe additional licenses you need. Normally if you try to do something you are not licensed to do, it will tell you what you are missing license wise. You can also just turn those licenses on in an HMI screen and a 1 hour annoyance message will tell you a license is missing but it will work indefinitely on machines prior to rev 4.4.


    Most of the images and references are from the following manual number on the Siemens website: 6SL3097-4AH00-0BP5

    Last edited by FailerJerry; 05-30-2017 at 06:33 PM.


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Need help setting up and building 5 axis from scratch

Need help setting up and building 5 axis from scratch