Syil X3 Conversion kit

[f757lkk]

Hi All,

Long time Lurker first time poster... i've been looking at the site for a long time and recently bought a sieg SuperX3 based on some of the feedback on here. Now i've got to a stage where i'd like to convert to CNC and Syil UK can offer a full conversion kit so to turn it into a syil super X3. I have few questions that i was hoping some of you guys might be able to help me with, please bear with me, i realise i have alot to learn!!!!

1. the Syil system uses stepper motors directly driving the ball screws, wheras most of the conversions/homebrew conversions use belt and pully. what are the pro's and cons/reasons?

2. Has anyone been able to maintain manual control of the mill by adding handwheels or similar? Can a pendant/MPG be added to maintain manual control?

3. Are the axis stepper motors on open loop control or is there an encoder feedback loop?

4. If the steppers are on open loop control can feedback from glass scales be input on the unit to close the loop?

5. what outputs are available on the standard interface/control board, ie coolant start stop, fourth axis etc...


Loads of questions i know, but i'm these will pose no threat to you guys!!!!!

Thanks in advance for your help,


Jamie

[iGG1e]

It's a tough call and I'd certainly not want to do anyone out of business, especially in these times.....Thanks Gordon for putting even more duty on our petrol.

Knowing what I know now and the fact that you have time to research here, I would take the route of getting the various parts myself and do my own thing. Answering your questions:

1. That one is a real search the forum and weight up what people say. Arguments about reduced backlash due to no coupler flex etc. Another good reason is the fact it can make mounting the motors easier. Also the Syil kit has a bottom mounted Z axis motor and that looks like they take a pick axe to the base casting to relieve it to allow the motor to fit. Unless this is the way all X3 bases look!

2. Not a very common thing to do with ball screws and I'd say to make it work you'd need to go down the motor/pulley drive route. I'm not sure whether the X4 mill with MPG can drive the axis regardless of whether any control software is running (Mach3 etc), but you can obviously use an MPG to control movement via Mach. I use the Shuttle Pro plug-in as a cheap alternative to a quality MPG. People also seem to like the Xbox controller plug-in.

3. The Syil kit is open loop.

4. The closed loop by encoders or scales would have to be handled by the controller software. Another area to research here and the Mach support forum. So far I've not really encountered an issue with it being open loop. I find my brain has more control issues than anything when it comes to doing daft things whilst using the mill.

5. The drives with the Syil kit seem to be okay, but the other boards are mediocre to say the least. You'd do better with an established third party breakout/driver board. The Syil interface board will handle four axis and has a relay for coolant, but is possibly a bit limited on IO.

No doubting, besides the very poor spindle control, the Syil kit will give you a functioning CNC mill.

[instructor37]

Originally Posted by f757lkk Hi All, Long time Lurker first time poster... i've been looking at the site for a long time and recently bought a sieg SuperX3 based on some of the feedback on here. Now i've got to a stage where i'd like to convert to CNC and Syil UK can offer a full conversion kit so to turn it into a syil super X3. I have few questions that i was hoping some of you guys might be able to help me with, please bear with me, i realise i have alot to learn!!!! 1. the Syil system uses stepper motors directly driving the ball screws, wheras most of the conversions/homebrew conversions use belt and pully. what are the pro's and cons/reasons? Direct drive requires some precision alignment- not conducive to Chinese machines- or use of a flex coupler- problem is the "flex" part of that. By using a belt/pulley arrangement you can tailor the drives to the speeds and torque you want. You can also use double shafted motors and put a handwheel on the motor for manual motion.

I would recommend you forget the Syil system- reading this forum is just a long list of failed boards, poor connections etc. Even though they make a reasonable effort to replace the parts, what you are going to get is more of the same. Look for a proven domestic supplier with good sevice and quality control, even if its a bit more pricey.

[Crevice Reamer]

Hi f757lkk. Welcome to the Zone!

Originally Posted by f757lkk Hi All, Long time Lurker first time poster... i've been looking at the site for a long time and recently bought a sieg SuperX3 based on some of the feedback on here. Now i've got to a stage where i'd like to convert to CNC and Syil UK can offer a full conversion kit so to turn it into a syil super X3.

I don't recommend Syill kit.

CncFusion has a nice kit:

http://cncfusion.com/smallmill1.html

If you go this route, get the Deluxe kit and upgrade to helical couplings and single pre loaded ball nuts.

Here is a very nice pictorial tear down guide for both X3 and SX3:

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/projec...on%20Guide.pdf

I have few questions that i was hoping some of you guys might be able to help me with, please bear with me, i realise i have alot to learn!!!!

Maybe some of this will be useful to you:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76865.#3

1. the Syil system uses stepper motors directly driving the ball screws, wheras most of the conversions/homebrew conversions use belt and pully. what are the pro's and cons/reasons?

Pulleys can alter drive ratios, gearing more power for smaller motors. MOST pulley systems though use 1:1 ratio and their primary benefit is tucking motors out of way for less overall travel.

2. Has anyone been able to maintain manual control of the mill by adding handwheels or similar? Can a pendant/MPG be added to maintain manual control?

See Basic CNC Primer under ball screws.

3. Are the axis stepper motors on open loop control or is there an encoder feedback loop?

Steppers are usually open loop. Steppers sometimes get a bad rap because many are under powered and can't turn very fast without losing steps. Proper power supply size eliminates this concern.

4. If the steppers are on open loop control can feedback from glass scales be input on the unit to close the loop?

No.

5. what outputs are available on the standard interface/control board, ie coolant start stop, fourth axis etc...

Most Break out boards offer all of these.

CR.

[f757lkk]

Thanks for all of your replies guys, especially CR. The CNC basics post was extremely useful. I'm going to look inot the shipping costs to the uk for the CNC fusion kit and reasearch some BOBs and drivers.

I'm sure i'll have many more questions to come,

thanks again for your help guys,

jamie

[Crevice Reamer]

My electronics recommendation for X3/SX3:

$098 2 KL23H284-35-4B 387 oz motors for X and Y.
$089 1 KL34H280-55-4A 637 oz motor for Z.
$417 3 Gecko G203V unkillable drives.
$189 KL- 6515 65v 15A PSU.
$183 1 PMDX-132 Combo breakout board.
-------
$976

http://kelinginc.net/

http://www.pmdx.com/

CR.

[Crevice Reamer]

You will also need some other stuff:

You can use THIS wire for motor cables and home/limit switches. Ground the drain wire ONLY at the driver end. It comes in 100 ft roll.

BELDEN 8723-100 STEPPER MOTOR CABLE WIRE

$32 http://www.fullcompass.com/product/305455.html 3 WK SHP

$33? http://www.jameco.com/Jameco/catalogs/c273/P101.pdf

$38 http://www.mcmelectronics.com/produc...100-/36F1033WA

$39 http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/sto...oductId=734180

$40 http://www.markertek.com/Product.asp...&utm_campaign=

$44 http://www.alliedelec.com/Search/Pro...SC=8723+060100

EUROPE http://www.cable-world.co.uk/online.htm

These inexpensive DC relays are very good :

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.as...tname=electric

You will also need an estop switch, Home/limit switches, Helical couplings and a 6 foot "straight thru parallel port cable. These are all available from Keling:

http://kelinginc.net/CNCPackage.html

CR.

[winsys11`]

Also have a look at www.cnckits.com.au in Australia.
I bought the rotayr table kit and its awesome.

They alos now have double ballscrews.

[f757lkk]

Hi everyone,

I'm back again i've had a few months away from my cnc conversion project with things like house moving and trackdays getting in the way, but i'm back on it now with full enthusiasm!!!!

The list of components from CR has been extremely useful. I think i'll buy the Gecko's and PMDX straight from the US as PMDX can send me a 4-Axis bundle to the UK for not too much money and everyone seems pretty impressed with that BOB driver combo.

my question is now finding an alternative for the steppers and PSU that Crevice Reamer suggested as these are heavy to ship and i'll get stung on tax when they go through customs!!!!

i found the following items that may or may not be suitable for a good price in the uk if you'd be kind enough to let me know if they're a good alternative i'd be really grateful!!!!

alternative for KL23H284-35-4B 387 oz motors for X and Y
http://www.motioncontrolproducts.co....H88-3008DF.pdf

Alternative for KL34H280-55-4A 637 oz motor for Z.
http://www.motioncontrolproducts.co....80-4208A-H.pdf

Alternative for KL- 6515 65v 15A PSU.

http://www.motioncontrolproducts.co....plies_v2.0.pdf
it's the PS-705


If someone with a bit more experiance than myself can run their eyes over the specs and compare it with the Kelling supplied stuff and let me know of any pitfalls in my plan i would be extremely grateful.

thanks in advance,

Jamie

[Ed from NY]

This thread probably belongs in the "General Metal Working Machines" forum since it is not a Syil conversion/machine.

Peace