Haas TL-3 worth anything more than $50k Paper weight? (LONG)

[pjr170]

well everyone...Here is my rant

I talked the owners of my company into purchasing a haas tl-3 in oct of 06 for use in our job shop, some odd $46k...paid cash. We have not been able to make anything with this machine and have it come out close to right, if it is even capable of making it at all.

The first few months was more of a learning curve, yet apparently the machine is uncapable of removing any more than .030 per side without chattering. Holding a size...out of the question, best we can get is +-.005" with a new insert making 6" parts.

So, I call up the dealer...no problem we will take a look at it, and they did with less than 20hrs (on time) on it. They determine that there techs did not complete the install checklist and final leveling of machine....so they took care of that. made some parts later that day and all seemed ok. Haas claims the machine operates to spec and it may....but that spec is not worth the paper its on.

Forward ahead a couple weeks...still not very repeatable...but much better +- .001" (no were near bearing fits, which is most of our parts). By this time the guys on the shop floor including myself resort to going back to the manual machines knowing that we would be wasting time and material attempting to make parts and ending up scrapping them. We use it to make metric bucket pins, and 1 thread job, which it does both very well.

This brings us to my FINAL attempt...we have a job making robot wheels. 1" thick 5" diameter with a 1/2" deep groove per side about 10" from chuck (attempting a series). All new usa tool holder and kennametal grooving tool.....and what do you know.....chatter returns, yay! I have tried every combination of speeds and feeds (above 200 rpm because it stalls), set the round up in horizontal mill, center drilled, the part runs out .0002" but we cant sink a 3/16 parting tool. Used Live center, dead center, and a steady rest. No difference with mastercam x2 or intuitive. Our shop also has 20 year + experienced machinists and they have tried all possible ways to stop the chatter.

The warranty expires in 8 days, I am recommending tomorrow to sell it and buy 2000 lathe files as i feel they will do a better job.


I have been doing cost calculations on this machine, and in 1 year as of oct 26, we have made $1200 in sellable parts. at this rate, this machine should pay for itself without labor in about 40 years. Factor in the scrap and labor and this machine cost us $5000 in the last year.

This was our first cnc machine, and I am sure it will be the last, a total waste of money. Could somebody please tell me if this machine is capable of actually grooving something 5" in diameter (4140)?

Sorry for the long write up...thanks for reading

Cliff Notes...Bought a TL-3 in oct 06....thing sucks...cant make any normal job shop parts, cant groove, cant hold tolerances...WASTE OF MONEY!!! Called Dealer several times...all checks out, still cant make any money. Look for a TL-3 with 200 hrs on the sell forums.

Thanks Again

Pat

[1ctoolfool]

are you talking about a face groove .187"? at 4" dia?
I would at least spend a few hundred bucks and a few minutes with a knowledgeable tooling apps person first before scrapping the machine.
who is your local Ingersol rep and where are you located? many tool reps will offer up their tool to try and solve your problem.

machine stalls at 200 rpm? at what feed?, no way should you be able to stall 18 hp at 4".. you didn't get the 30hp spindle?


joev

[pjr170]

joev,

No, groove as if you were parting off at 5" dia down to 4" dia. I cant imagine why I should by special tools when a 1957 leblond will do it no problem. I do not hate haas, I have business partners that use them and they are awesome, just ranting here and would love to get this thing to make money. As for the 30hp spindle, guess what option came out a month or so after we purchased this one (or at least thats what the dealer told us)???? so we are stuck with the 18. The spindle stalls at anything over .002/rev at 200. machine needs to run at 350+ to get any power.

[1ctoolfool]

I can try to duplicate what you are doing on our TL-2.

Single plunge with a .187 parting tool from 5"dia. to 4"dia. 10" from chuck face

Only I won't have a piece of 5" 4140 lying around, I might have to find a piece that big.

on that note, I was thinking my TL-2 might be turning a taper, and was going to cut a 24" test bar today.

If I have a complaint it's with the tailstock, i'm pretty sure that's where you'd find your problem.

if you do the plunge at the chuck face same problem?

where are you located?

[Wiseco]

On my side, I have pushed my TL-2 to the max in the past (near 200% spindle load) at low rpm for a test on a 6"1/2 dia stainless steel and it have not stalled. I will do a test on my side to help you too.

Correct me if I'm wrong, if I'll do the test on stainless steel it will be equivalant or harder to turned than 4140 right?

Edit : I've pushed my TL-2 to the max and no stall : stainless steel 6" to 5.5" with a TNMG tool at .1 DOC and .02 of feed 130 rpm, the spindle load showned me 180% for 10 sec and no stall. Same thing with a .122 parting tool pushed to the max.

I'm pretty well served by my TL-2 so you should would check with your Haas techman for a problem on your machine.

[HAILINHAAS]

Call the factory if you cannot get anymore help from your dealer ... ask for applications .. they should get you going in the right direction .. making money.

[HAILINHAAS]

This is your first CNC ... ? You have experienced machinist ... but I have heard from several different machinist that manual and CNC techniques are different ... best bet is to get a Haas Application technician to look at what you are trying to achieve ... they are VERY experienced and should be able to help.

[pjr170]

Thanks guys...Really appreciate the feedback

joev,

We have had numerous complaints about the tailstock, IF you clamp yours down and start to apply a decent amount of pressure does it slip...ours does, also when you clamp the tailstock down the end of the quill moves .003"-.005". Had the dealer tear this apart and look for problems. I even tore it apart and stoned all the edges, with no luck. When we first had it looked at the dealer indicated to -.015 off center *apparently* that was close enough

With the plunge at chuck face (about 1.5 away) I still get chatter although not as severe it is still enough to scrap the part if I let it go into the finish depth.

-Pat

Also located in Western Pa (North of Pittsburgh)

[pjr170]

Spent the entire second half of the day on this thing. Called Dealer and had them come out with the surprise of another guest, the local iscar rep. After showing them the issues, the iscar rep said, "there is no way all of that chatter is coming from the tooling or tooling setup, I would say it is in the machine, particularly the tailstock". So I took the tailstock apart as these parts need done now. No problems, all seems well, just as last time, indicated and adjusted tailstock again....same thing. I finally had enough and told the haas rep that this thing is junk so i am going to beat the hell out of it to see if it will work. After indicating the stock to within a half thou, i center drilled and put the tailstock in. Used all of my weight plus a few deadblow strokes and locked it down, then applied pressure to the workpiece with the tailstock until i could not move the handle, then tapped it with the hammer, repeated with the lock for the quill and the quick change toolpost. Ran the speed at 175rpm and the feed at .010"rev (about 150% spindle load) and as the cut started I kept applying pressure to the tailstock quill to remove any chatter. Amazingly it worked. I finally made Good parts with this thing. Haas is going to send out another tech to look at why it still chatters, but at least it is capable of it.

thanks

Pat

[PBMW]

I have a friend with a TL1 that has much the same issue with th etail stock. Will not repeat nad moves under pressure. I think hetold me it clamps on the linear guides (!)

[AMCTony]

The TL-2 tailstock is a POS! I am considering modifying it with hydraulic clamping to hold it in place as well as a hydraulic ram to move the center in and out.

[1ctoolfool]

I agree, don't like the tl2 tailstock, but it looks like the tl1 and 2 tailstock clamps on the linear rails and the tl3 clamps on the bed, can someone confirm? TL3 looks like a better setup.
joev