This is the longest thread I`ve read all the way through, its been fascinating!
Maybe the Xyron Design Runner could be "hacked" by the electronics experts here to print a PCB?
Here`s a video "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhvtpM0bc4U&feature=related"]YouTube - Xyron Design Runner in action
Webpage http://www.printdreams.co.uk
/xdr.php
£25 on Ebay.. Item number: 400059033045
Russell
Don't wait for her to get one. This would make the perfect little suprise gift for her. Then seeing as you were so thoughtfull she won't be able to say no when you want to borrow it. There has to be some method to our madness.
Lakes
This really is a cute little find. I'll have to show it to my sister. As Russell says, you deserve some kind of reward for reading the whole thread.
Cheers
Don
Sorry I didn't see this earlier. I missed reading one of the posts so I wasn't getting email notification of new posts.
I'm afraid the only thing I can do to help you find the problem is to give a little information about what the printer is doing during startup.
On these low priced printers the head is used to activate levers that change the function of the feed motor. The following list will give you the basics of how the printer accomplishes the different functions.
It has been several years since I investigated the startup sequence and the list of steps varies between printers. Some of the steps may be performed multiple times and at different speeds or print head heights depending on how many features the printer has.
I only list each step once even though portions of the sequence are typically repeated at least twice. The list should, however, help you make sense of what's happening in your printer's startup dance.
1) Forward Paper Feed - Clear the paper path before any print head movement.
2) Head Right to Stop - Home the print head
3) Reverse Feed - This throws a lever in the path of the head allowing the head to engage the pump.
4) Head Left to Stop - The head moves left and pushes the lever which raises a rubber seal that allows the purge pump suck air out of the ink ports.
5) Reverse Feed - Operates the purge pump
6) Head Right to Stop - Lowers the purge pump
7) Feed Forward - Retract the pump activation lever
8) Head Left to End - Verify the head travel is clear and reading (this usually happens once at slow speed and once at high speed to verify they read the same)
9) Nozzle Purge - Prints into the absorbent pad. (I have seen printers that do this print-purge in the home position after lowering the pump but think most do it on the left beyond the normal print area)
10) Head Right - Home the print head.
Again, the sequence I gave is just a bare minimum startup example and will not exactly match any particular printer. It is also important to note that there are two different types of print head purges. The home position purge uses a pump to suck air (and a lot of ink) out of the nozzles while the left side purge actually runs the print head.
Now, as for your printer errors after the head ran into the carrier:
There is no way running over the tape or carrier is going to plug all the nozzles. You could have had a piece of tape covering the head (which you would have found when you took the head off) but not plugged nozzles. It is simply impossible for the adhesive to stick stronger to the wet surface of the print head than it does to the cellophane tape carrier. It is almost certain that the ink stopped because you lost either the electrical connection to the head or shorted out the power when PCB snagged the head.
From your description, it sounds like your printer doesn't report a head error until it attempts the left side print-purge. I believe that this is where it makes the first attempt to write to the cartridge EEPROMs. My best guess is that it gives an error because it can't change the EEPROM data. This again leads me to the same conclusion that you lost either some connection or power to circuitry that runs the head. Perhaps a close inspection of where the ribbons connect on the head will reveal a lost connection or a tear in the ribbon.
Hope something in there helps,
Pete
Hi Don, I like the way you think
The only problem I can foresee is when she gets it back and it has no visible covers left, has a homemade PCB fixed on one side with insulation tape, and is bolted to a mini gantry...other than that it may be worth a shot
Cheers.
Russell.
Phew!!! 805 posts and I just read every one of them!!! Much more interesting than the stuff on TV!!!
Now I have an other item for my just-have-to-do list.
Man, Pete Robinson, your knowledge on printers amazes me. Is there any printer you didn't take apart. I think when a printer hears he goes to your house he has nightmares.
I learned so much I'm not sure my old gray cell will keep all the stuff. But what took the cake, for me, was the idea to make your own PCB cutting tools out of concrete nails. I slapped myself on the forehead so hard it's bleeding. I was racking my brain how to get some here to my Caribbean island without paying an arm and a leg. Now I know. (I must have two pounds of them lying around rusting away)
Yoram
Just increased my count by one. :)
I don't know why it double posted, but it did and I couldn't find a way to earase it.
Last edited by TigerPilot; 08-10-2009 at 07:37 AM. Reason: Double posting
Just increased my count by one. :)
Hi guys. *HUGE* thanks to epineh, C88mod and Pete.
I have been looking at what way to go about fabbing some PCB board prototypes at home, and not having a laser printer handy other than the office, was not keen on the transfer method.
I've read this thread from start to finish and am going out to grab an epson T21 tomorrow for $59. I'll be leveraging ScottA's T20 mods I imagine - thanks mate.
I'll also grab some FeCl3 and also give the HCl+H2O2 mix a go since it seems that may solve undercut/etch time issues.
Now to get the reflow station and a CNC to make solder-paste-masks and I'm cooking with toaster-oven SMD's
Thanks heaps guys - its awesome to see as well that even 2 years later the thread still gets 'serviced'.
I'll be sure to share my experiences - no doubt tomorrow night (heres hoping!)
Last edited by adr1an; 08-23-2009 at 02:28 AM.
Hey guys, great to see more people joining in the craziness !
Here are a couple of boards I did a couple of weekends ago, just to wet your appetite ...only simple boards but the tracks came out perfect. (I use Ferric Chloride to etch)
I used 0.8mm board and these will be glued together to make double sided boards, I know this is cheating but it is just easier than trying to print both sides on the one board.
Cheers.
Russell.
I was planning to get the TX20 or TX21.. but no one here in Canberra had any in stock. Being impatient, I grabbed the TX100 instead, which is the same thing but with the scanner function. It looks to be not that different to the C88 series stuff.
Im going to do some test prints before I pull it down, just to get a good idea on this particular printers start-up dance.
Drop in to DSE to grab some Ferric (since Jaycar dont seem to sell it anymore) and found for the same price as a 500ml bottle they had a "Marked down for clearance" Ferric etch kit which came with 500ml's of solution, 2 x blank PCB's and a Dalo pen.. for $15!
Wish me luck
Last edited by adr1an; 08-23-2009 at 03:27 AM.
Ok - I managed to get a fair bit done last night, but I have reached that inevitable road block: The Paper Sensor!
Im not sure if this is the same place everyone elses was mounted, but its just below the print head ribbon cable connectors and part of the logic board (not on a separate board). A small lever in the center of the paper path is connected a 'gate' that opens and closes across the IR sensor.. when the lever is pushed up, its moved clear of the gate, signifying paper is present.
I guess I'll have to de-solder it, run some wires and relocate it somewhere else and try the notch in the carrier that everyone else has. Then work out what gap I need when I push the carrier forward into the rollers.
Besides that, the case is modified and it was fairly straight forward.
Panic set in slightly when I was removing the head-rail - the TX100 has an encoder wheel exposed on the righthand side and as I was trying to get the rail off I accidentally scratched some of the micro-strip off.. but after using some washers to jack up the head clearance the encoder now sits slightly lower in the sensor and I think it avoids the 'bad' bit - phew.
I also had one other casulaty - the left side pressure rolled was wonky, and as I moved it into place all the little clips just came clean off - I've saved them all, so might use a bit of glue tomorrow to patch it up.. I dont think just a middle pressure bar and the right most (when looking at rear of printer) will do the job.
I'll put some pics up later on once I've finished sorting everything out... this paper sensor is going to have me scratching my head for a while I think....
Last edited by adr1an; 08-23-2009 at 05:06 PM.
If you want the easy solution without hacking up your printer, checkout my thread here: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88906
I just stumbled on this thread. I'm usually in the CNC area.
I used to print PCB's more than 10 years ago using a flat bed plotter. I used to use a Roland DXY800. It had the standard HP style plotter pens - the ones with the little wire inside that acts like a valve when the pen pushes down on the paper. You had to use a really fine pen like maybe .3mm. I had to machine a special holder that holds the pen up higher than normal by the thickness of the board.
I used to use a special ink that was meant for plotting on ceramic cups and things. It was bullet proof in the etch. It took quite a while to plot them, much the same as PCB milling does these days but the boards came out excellent. As good as a paper plot of a drawing did in the old days.
I can't use my plotter any more because it was from an era before Windows and I can't find drivers for it for windows.
A better choice of plotter is an HP flat bed unit becauase they accepted HPGL codes so you should be able to connect one right up to windows (I think).
Cleaning the boards was always a bit of a problem. MG chemicals sells some powder which is like a very fine abrasive to scrub the boards with. I suspect comet sink clenser would work as well.
You can tell if the board is clean by laying water on the surface. If it beads up AT ALL the board is not clean. The water should lay perfectly flat (assuming the board is flat) and perhaps only move away at the edges where the board has been bent by shearing. The water should never be rounded at the edges. If you do get it clean never touch it with your hands. A quick pre-etch is also sometimes good. Also strong solvents like toluene or acetone might work. Slight rougness of the surface as in the cleanser method is also beneficial especially when I was plotting them because the surface was more like paper then.
Just thought these ideas from the past might be of use to you people trying to do the direct print method.
I've been using the toner transfer recently but as some mention in order to get the toner to adhere properly requires pressing pretty hard on it with the iron which causes the tracks to widen. If I could use my plotter again this is the route I would follow since I have the ideal ink. Likely not available in ink jet form.
Just an FYI. Maybe some ideas will come to mind.
Sage
It doesn't need to be that hard if you have the right tools. See my detailed tutorial: http://www.fullspectrumengineering.com/tutorial.html
Since I don't have one of these printers made up yet. May I suggest someone try this ink in a cartridge.
http://www.staedtler.com/drawing_inks.Staedtler
It's old school ink for manual pens and plotters. I used to use it in my plotter when I did circuit boards with excellent results. No baking or pre-heating required. Just a VERY CLEAN board.
I don't see the exact ink I used to use in my pen plotter which was specifically for writing on ceramic and was absolutley bullit proof, but one of these inks might be ok anyway. I don't ever remember old draftings on mylar ever washing off.
For what it's worth the part number I used to use was 485 23SAR-9
(The R in the number may be a P, there is a large glob of ink on the bottle I have and I can't get the ink off to read it properly). Maybe someone can research or ask Staedtler for the modern equivalent of this number.
It's quite thin so it may work fine in an inkjet cartridge.
Before you use it also research how to clean it up. You might have to get the staedtler cleaner as well. I don't think it's water soluable.
(Certainly not when it's dry anyway)
Good luck
Sage
The tutorial link works for me: http://www.fullspectrumengineering.com/tutorial.html
Also if anyone is interested, I sell a complete KIT that converts an Epson CD printer to print on PCBs: http://www.fullspectrumengineering.com/pcbinkjet.html
•Stainless Steel PCB CD Stencil
•Special Inkjet PCB Resist Prefilled Inside a Black Refill Cartridge for Epson Artisan 50, Stylus RX580, RX595, RX680, R260, R280, R285, R290, R380
•10x Double Sided 3.5"x2.5"x1/32" Copper Clad
•Only $65
This is the easiest/fastest way to make a pcb by far.
See the video: "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9W6mWtA8YM"]YouTube - Inkjet Direct PCB Printing With Full Spectrum Engineering Custom CD Holder
This thread title caught my attention as I'm currently doing some research into a similar project. I've read through some pages but can someone say if the idea of printing the PCB itself (rather than the mask) has been discussed, i.e. substrate goes in, then after printing a conductive PCB comes out?
Cheers
Ben
Last edited by CurlyBen; 09-10-2009 at 04:24 AM.
Probably, just about any kind of idea relating to PCB's has been talked about here ...I can't remember any successful stories of conductive printing though. I think somebody tried one of the PCB repair pens, but the resolution wasn't the best.
Sounds like a good idea though, maybe something along the lines of the rapid prototyping setups may be somewhere to start. I would think the conductive ink would need to be printed then "cured" somehow to form a solid track ... good luck
Cheers.
Russell.