Newbie- 2011 Patriot general questions

[axion68]

I'm new to machining and have always been interested in it. I love the craftsmanship of a finely machined part and have always dreamed of making what I want.

I'm looking for a machine to primarily mill and turn snowmobile parts with. Materials would be mild steel, aluminum and billet aluminum. Parts would range from brackets, 2-stroke head domes and possibly a clutch if I have the skill and the machine can handle it.

Would the patriot suit my beginner needs?

As for the speed of the machine, what would you guess you could mill a pocket the size of a deck of cards out of a block of aluminum?

In a 30'x50' finished shop would the noise bother other mechanics working?

Is the current pricing special of $5,000 with the cnc and ball screw option a good buy?

I'm trying to determine if it will be a solid investment once you get past the "wow" factor.

Thanks for any responses!

[instructor37]

Originally Posted by axion68 I'm new to machining and have always been interested in it. I love the craftsmanship of a finely machined part and have always dreamed of making what I want. I'm looking for a machine to primarily mill and turn snowmobile parts with. Materials would be mild steel, aluminum and billet aluminum. Parts would range from brackets, 2-stroke head domes and possibly a clutch if I have the skill and the machine can handle it. Would the patriot suit my beginner needs? As for the speed of the machine, what would you guess you could mill a pocket the size of a deck of cards out of a block of aluminum? In a 30'x50' finished shop would the noise bother other mechanics working? Is the current pricing special of $5,000 with the cnc and ball screw option a good buy? I'm trying to determine if it will be a solid investment once you get past the "wow" factor. Thanks for any responses!

I can't speak for the newest machines, but we have the older Patriots with ball screws and CNC. Our machines can hold 0.001" tolerance on most stuff, and with some care have done better. It is my understanding that the 2011 machines are essentially the same units, with all the mechanical drives stripped away and replaced by electronics. The base castings etc. are good quality and pretty heavy.
As far as your project size is concerned, they would be ideal. Milling the pocket is an easy project, but the speed will depend on the material, depth of the pocket and the tolerances you need to hold. If the corner radius is small, you would probably use a larger end mill for the hogging, and then do a tool change to a smaller one for the radius cuts.
Noise wise, I would guess that the machine operator would be more likely to be bothered by the other shop employees.
Price wise they are hard to beat, when you consider that you have both a CNC mill and a CNC lathe for the 5K. Trying to get equal size separate machines each fitted with CNC would be 2-3 times that amount in the used market. Buying new would be at least 4X.
All in all they are a good value for the money, but be prepared for the standard issues of Chinese machines- final tuning, cleaning etc., and go into the whole project with realistic expectations. Remember that you will have a learning curve both in manual machining and CNC operation as well, so you won't be cranking out parts the first week.

[axion68]

Originally Posted by instructor37 I can't speak for the newest machines, but we have the older Patriots with ball screws and CNC. Our machines can hold 0.001" tolerance on most stuff, and with some care have done better. It is my understanding that the 2011 machines are essentially the same units, with all the mechanical drives stripped away and replaced by electronics. The base castings etc. are good quality and pretty heavy. As far as your project size is concerned, they would be ideal. Milling the pocket is an easy project, but the speed will depend on the material, depth of the pocket and the tolerances you need to hold. If the corner radius is small, you would probably use a larger end mill for the hogging, and then do a tool change to a smaller one for the radius cuts. Noise wise, I would guess that the machine operator would be more likely to be bothered by the other shop employees. Price wise they are hard to beat, when you consider that you have both a CNC mill and a CNC lathe for the 5K. Trying to get equal size separate machines each fitted with CNC would be 2-3 times that amount in the used market. Buying new would be at least 4X. All in all they are a good value for the money, but be prepared for the standard issues of Chinese machines- final tuning, cleaning etc., and go into the whole project with realistic expectations. Remember that you will have a learning curve both in manual machining and CNC operation as well, so you won't be cranking out parts the first week.

Can you give a ballpark estimate of time for using a large hogging end mill with a large corner radius? Just trying to get in idea if it will take 1 minute or 30 minutes!

[dahui]

I imagine hogging a pocket would take maybe 5-10 minutes. I have an older eldorado (non-CNC) and machine rigidity is an issue if you need to move a lot of material. Unless cosmetic finish is a must, I HIGHLY recommend using coarse tooth roughing endmills for any gross material removal. If you want you can switch to a standard endmill for a finishing pass, but that might be more trouble than it's worth.

Another thing to consider, depending on your location, is industrial auctions. You can get a lot of equipment for 10 cents on the dollar. Auctions have slowed down a LOT in my area, meaning fewer shops are going under. That's a good thing for them and not so great for me

I have a lot of info here on my experience with my manual eldorado: Welcome to The Alchemist Basically I'd say (no knowledge of the new machines) you get what you pay for. I did a lot of research and the shoptask met my expectations, but my expectations were pretty low to begin with. In the past, there has been a lot of variability from one machine to another...someone gets a machine that is dead on...someone gets junk. Don't know if that is still true today. I would expect to spend some significant time getting the machine tuned up.

[smallblock]

Originally Posted by dahui I imagine hogging a pocket would take maybe 5-10 minutes. I have an older eldorado (non-CNC) and machine rigidity is an issue if you need to move a lot of material. Unless cosmetic finish is a must, I HIGHLY recommend using coarse tooth roughing endmills for any gross material removal. If you want you can switch to a standard endmill for a finishing pass, but that might be more trouble than it's worth. I have a lot of info here on my experience with my manual eldorado: Welcome to The Alchemist Basically I'd say (no knowledge of the new machines) you get what you pay for. I did a lot of research and the shoptask met my expectations, but my expectations were pretty low to begin with. In the past, there has been a lot of variability from one machine to another...someone gets a machine that is dead on...someone gets junk. Don't know if that is still true today. I would expect to spend some significant time getting the machine tuned up.

I got my first unit in the early 90's and did a lot of good work with it. Later I moved up to the gear driven Patriot from the ISO 9001 certified factory. There was a considerable improvement in the overall quality. By eliminating all the gear drives and using the VFD spindle drives on the newest version, they must have eliminated 90% of the potential mechanical problems.
I wouldn't hesitate to buy the new unit.

[axion68]

Is the DRO a useful option? Doesn't Mach3 provide me with the same information? Is the DRO more accurate than the information provided in Mach3?

If anyone can share their experience I would appreciate it, I'm trying to determine if is a worthwhile option!

[instructor37]

Originally Posted by axion68 Is the DRO a useful option? Doesn't Mach3 provide me with the same information? Is the DRO more accurate than the information provided in Mach3? If anyone can share their experience I would appreciate it, I'm trying to determine if is a worthwhile option!

The DRO is more useful in the manual mode, as it eliminates all the potential errors of reading dials and counting turns. Also it removes any backlash concerns because it reads the actual table travel. Mach III has its own on screen DRO, but it is simply showing the programmed distance- if you lose steps it will not be accurate. Also the Mach III does not read if you move the tables by hand. The separate DRO is a good option for manual operation as well as a check for the CNC programming.