Some compatiability questions. Yaskawa SGDx and Omron

[clytle374]

Background/what/why: I've worked for a CNC machine builder in the past, so I have a decent background with Yaskawa drives. I'm starting a build with a X2 bench top machine. I'm using servos partly because I'm familiar with them, partly because they are better, and mostly because this is to prove out the system and for experience. I'm using the X2(unless something better comes along real soon and real cheap) since I have it. I have some 50W and 100W Omron servos that I got years ago for almost free, a little small and will require belt reduction for torque, but are around the right wattage. I just got 3 SGDA-01AS. I will be using Linux EMC with a card providing +/- 10v control and encoder feedback for closed loop. I've have not been involved with servos and drives regularly for 5+ years and need a refresher course.

What I've got:
3 x Yaskawa SGDA-01AS
4 x Omron R88M-U05030HA-S1 50W 200V
4 x Omron R88M-U10030HA-BS1 100W 200V
I've read these servos are re-branded SMG Yaskawas, and the drives were picked out from cross referencing the manuals for hours. The numbers and connectors match up.

I still need drives for the 4th axis 100W and the 50Ws.

Questions: Some are assumptions, please correct if false.

1) I did get the right drives for my servos? Pretty sure I got this right.

2) Does anyone have a cross reference from Yaskawa to Omron and BrandX? It would make scrounging easier, and there is more info available for the Yaskawas. I've found a newer one, but it doesn't include the R88M-U series.

3) I can't get my head around what is what as far as the evolution of the SGDx and SMGx series drives and servos.

4) Driver/servo families, in chronological order are
1 Servos SGMG and SGMS belong to SGDC series drives.
2 Servos SGMB belong to the SGDB series drives.
3 Servos SGM and SGMP belong to the SGDA series drives.
4 Servos SGM belong to the SGD series drives.

5)It appears that a newer series drive will drive an older series servo in the above list. Providing voltage/power is correct. Older series drives might drive a new series servo if the encoder type and resolution is compatible.

6) This one is driving me nuts, since I know I did it before under instruction. Can a the drive be set to run a lower power servo? ie Can I set the above 100W drives to run my 50W servos? I would like to find some higher power drives for the 100W ones for use in a much larger future machine and put these in a lathe. I have looked over the SGDB manual several times and can't find such a setting,

Thanks for any help here. After 3 days of reading PDFs and posts, myself and this little netbook, have a CPU ache.

Thanks for any help
Cory

[Mike Nash]

I haven't looked to see if I can find the Omron to Yaskawa cross, but yes, Yaskawa built Omron Servos for years. There may be some specification/programming differences, but the older motors and drives should work together. As far as I know, you have to match the motor and drive wattage as they are tuned together in the drive firmware. As for which particular motors work with which particular drives, read the manuals or catalogs (get all of them you can find on the various Yaskawa world sites. There's an upgrade chart on http://www.drives.com (Yaskawa US website) that will give you an idea of which go together on the Yaskawa side. You do have to be careful especailly with the SGD series as it takes a different drive for the pancake motors. The SGDA drives will run either SGM motor style and are a little nicer software wise. The SGD/SGDA are Sigma Series, The SGDH are Sigma II and of course the Sigma 5's are out now. There are also Japanese versions that will interchange with the motors and drives.

Research, research, research.

[clytle374]

Originally Posted by Mike Nash I haven't looked to see if I can find the Omron to Yaskawa cross, but yes, Yaskawa built Omron Servos for years. There may be some specification/programming differences, but the older motors and drives should work together. As far as I know, you have to match the motor and drive wattage as they are tuned together in the drive firmware. As for which particular motors work with which particular drives, read the manuals or catalogs (get all of them you can find on the various Yaskawa world sites. There's an upgrade chart on http://www.drives.com (Yaskawa US website) that will give you an idea of which go together on the Yaskawa side. You do have to be careful especailly with the SGD series as it takes a different drive for the pancake motors. The SGDA drives will run either SGM motor style and are a little nicer software wise. The SGD/SGDA are Sigma Series, The SGDH are Sigma II and of course the Sigma 5's are out now. There are also Japanese versions that will interchange with the motors and drives. Research, research, research.

Okay, so there isn't 'one stop shopping' on drive compatibility. I think I have the entire Yaskawa manual collection now. Read SGD -SGDC

I've got another thread just on the wattage matching issue. Still sorting that out, I've got a couple leads.

[Mike Nash]

Here's a post in another thread RE the Omron/Yaskawa issue.

Yaskawa SGDH and SGDA servo motor/drive wiring questions

[clytle374]

Originally Posted by Mike Nash Here's a post in another thread RE the Omron/Yaskawa issue. Yaskawa SGDH and SGDA servo motor/drive wiring questions

I had found that, but thanks, good reference for future lookers.

[Mike Nash]

Well, well, well. I did a little searching and found your motor codes mentioned. I'm not sure how this works for sure, so I'll leave that to those interested. It does say it is for monitoring but?

http://www.yaskawa.com/site/dmservo....E-S800-15C.pdf
manual page 203 but pdf page 214

Also seems to be mentioned in most of the operator manuals I have pdfs of. See Cn-00 then 00-04.

My copy of SigmaWin Lite is wanting to hang up, but the help file also shows a motor selection menu.

[clytle374]

Originally Posted by Mike Nash Well, well, well. I did a little searching and found your motor codes mentioned. I'm not sure how this works for sure, so I'll leave that to those interested. It does say it is for monitoring but? http://www.yaskawa.com/site/dmservo....E-S800-15C.pdf manual page 203 but pdf page 214 Also seems to be mentioned in most of the operator manuals I have pdfs of. See Cn-00 then 00-04. My copy of SigmaWin Lite is wanting to hang up, but the help file also shows a motor selection menu.

I was just getting ready to post that, but got off on a Linux EMC research tangent.

That looks very familiar. I remember the code not being in the normal places and looking unwritable. The engineer was one the phone with me at the time and figured the hex code to load in. After more thinking it was an SGDA servopack, and was turned up. This makes sense tho, why would the manufacture each model different and not just set a code?

I remember having to have a digital op and not the svmon software. I have never used SigmaWin. I'll go get a windows machine to try it now, it crashes my Linux box in Wine.

EDIT: In offline mode SigmaWin gave me no real hope of being able to change it. I'm going to call Yaskawa in the morning. Even if they refuse to tell me how, if they will verify it's possible I'll be happier.

[battwell]

im running omron drives with yaskawa motors. r88 omron with yaskawa motors. certainly the omron were identical to the sgd drives as i use the same parameters, hmi, motors leads etc.
i have both yaskawa and omrons here which i intermix as required (at the same wattage so far)
i havnt tried a downsize in wattage but have run 200 volt motors from 100 volt drives ok on the bench to test 100 volt drives i didnt have motors for at the time.

if they are anything like mitsubishi they will automatically detect motor size and downsize output accordingly (dont quote me or blame me if they smoke)
eg a 100 watt mitsubishi is universal for 100w, 50w, 30 w motors
however the mitsubishis use a serial encoder which tells the drive what motor it is.

as a thought. the yaskawas do have a torque limit setting which could be set at max 50% fwd and reverse (and half the max emergency torque etc) and as the drive is running encoder direct it should not try to draw more than it requires to clear encoder error???

[clytle374]

Originally Posted by battwell im running omron drives with yaskawa motors. r88 omron with yaskawa motors. certainly the omron were identical to the sgd drives as i use the same parameters, hmi, motors leads etc. i have both yaskawa and omrons here which i intermix as required (at the same wattage so far) i havnt tried a downsize in wattage but have run 200 volt motors from 100 volt drives ok on the bench to test 100 volt drives i didnt have motors for at the time. if they are anything like mitsubishi they will automatically detect motor size and downsize output accordingly (dont quote me or blame me if they smoke) eg a 100 watt mitsubishi is universal for 100w, 50w, 30 w motors however the mitsubishis use a serial encoder which tells the drive what motor it is. as a thought. the yaskawas do have a torque limit setting which could be set at max 50% fwd and reverse (and half the max emergency torque etc) and as the drive is running encoder direct it should not try to draw more than it requires to clear encoder error???

The SGDA SGM motors and packs don't share any info, so the pack has no idea of what size the motor is.

The big drawback to using torque limit is that you severely limit the torque available or loose the protections for max torque/time. Meaning that a 100pack and a 50W you limit yourself to %50 of constant rated torque or risk burning the motor up.

[battwell]

i dont think it would be a problem. the drive will only supply what the motor requires to keep to minimum encoder error? hence if the motor requires one amp for example to turn at 300rpm the drive will know the power to output by the encoder error count.
i think the main problem would be going up in motor size where the motor would draw too much current from the drive.

i do have a 1kw motor running off an omron 2kw drive here with no problems and i didnt change any parameters in that (and its working hard)

[clytle374]

Originally Posted by battwell i dont think it would be a problem. the drive will only supply what the motor requires to keep to minimum encoder error? hence if the motor requires one amp for example to turn at 300rpm the drive will know the power to output by the encoder error count. i think the main problem would be going up in motor size where the motor would draw too much current from the drive. i do have a 1kw motor running off an omron 2kw drive here with no problems and i didnt change any parameters in that (and its working hard)

I'm really surprised you aren't having trouble. I'm guessing it is NOT working more than 1kw hard.

The problem is that the amp allows over current for a limited time. By setting the torque limit you do limit the current, but is that setting a percentage of continuous torque or peak torque? Kinda has to be peak, or changing it to 99% from 100% would be a big jump.

If it is peak torque then a 100W amp would have no reason to back off a 100W motor. For example a 100W motor has a constant of .87A and a peak of 2.8A and a 50W motor has a 00W motor has a constant of .6A and a peak of 1.9A. In this example a 50% peak limit would allow the amp to deliver 1.4A to the 50W motor for a longer time than allowed. You could set the limit even lower, but then you would loose peak torque altogether.

But you might be able to use a 50W 200V motor with a 100W 100V amp just fine, if the amp only monitors current.

[battwell]

the amps can be set to max 311% torque/time (this is how i set the 200 watt motors running on rack/pinion)
if set to 100% surely this limits correctly to the motors max normal running wattage with no peak?
to be fair i havnt tried this but as i have a couple of 200w on the bench at the moment il try them later with a torque wrench attatched to them to see results.
shame i dont have any 100watt motors to try.

it would really boil down to serrvo application i think.

my 1kw motor is running a reel spooler on a wire stripe painting machine. by running hard i mean running 90% duty cycle time. only at about 900watts max though with a full wire reel.