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Thread: 6 Axis Press Brake control retrofit

  1. #1

    Cool 6 Axis Press Brake control retrofit

    Hello all and apologies in advance for newbie questions!

    I'm looking for advice on components to retrofit the controls on two Wysong 6 axis CNC hydraulic press brakes that have non-working Cybelec DNC 7000 controls, both circa 1987. The machines had relays and contactors for logic with the DNC controlling motion but the previous owners ripped them all out with no regard to any organization or retrofit. They left the servo drives, motors, encoders, tachometers, limit switches, linear scales, hydraulics, etc and all the wiring to everything intact so I don't want to redo any of these items if at all possible. The machine has four brushed DC servo motors with tachometers and encoders for X, R, Z1, Z2 and servo valves for Y1 and Y2 cylinders, along with limit switches, foot control, and ram pressure and bed crowning control by the CNC through (proportional?) valves that I believe are controlled by additional analog signals. I would like to re-use the servo drives (I believe they are analog +/-10v input), motors, valves and everything else that is already in place and seems to be in good condition. I need a HMI and would like to use a laptop with Mach4, maybe touchscreen, for programming and ops. I already bought a PoKeys57CNC - 8 axis board v1.3 and the Mach4 software, but it seems that the motor outputs are step and direction only, so I was thinking of converting those signals with DAC breakout boards for each relevant axis but I don't really know if that's correct or which boards to use, or if I can accomplish the analog outputs directly from Mach4 or some other method that is effective and more efficient. The tachometer outputs go directly to the servo drives and not the DNC, but are they even necessary considering the speed of current hardware and software? I don't understand what their function is in the first place. I considered replacing the drives with new ones but what (if anything) would I do with the tachometer inputs? Can they be eliminated/ignored completely? I haven't seen any boards that have a provision for them.

    Can anyone tell me which combination of components would give me the best results?

    Parts were able to be programmed on screen and the control would calculate positions for the back gauges and depth of the ram for the proper bend angle which I would like to be able to do on a new HMI or PC screen, but may not be entirely feasible. If anyone can help me with the on-screen part programming aspect of this project it would be greatly appreciated. I found the iControl Press Brake controller on ebay for $8500 which sounds perfect for the whole project but is un-affordable.


    Marc


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  2. #2
    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: 6 Axis Press Brake control retrofit

    Dynomotion Kanalog/Kflop boards might be a good choice. Galil Motion Control products would work very well also and would be my choice for this project.

    The tachs connect back to the servo drives so that they know how fast the motor is turning. The motion controller sends a +/- 10 volt analog signal to the drives, and receives feedback from the encoders. It sounds like you need at least an 8 axis card given the number of servo driven devices you have on that machine. The good news is that it sounds like they left the main components intact.

    As far as off-the-shelf software, I have no idea. If you can make it run on standard G code, then Mach3/4 might be an option. If you are a programmer it wouldn't be very hard to write your own software, if you're not, then it would be a bit of a learning curve. Sounds like an interesting project, I've been wanting to do a press break. I might be able to help you a bit when I get a couple other projects out of my hair, just finishing up the full 4 axis profiling integration on my CNC software. Then I have to get my CNC lathe on line, that should happen in the next week. But a word of warning, Mach3/4 and I don't get along well.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


  3. #3

    Default Re: 6 Axis Press Brake control retrofit

    Hello Jim and thank you for your response and enlightenment.
    Which Galil products would you choose for this project and how much programming and complexity is involved? I'm not a programmer but I'm very familiar with G&M codes which I use daily for laser cutting in my shop. Is the PoKeys57 board I already purchased a bad option? And why do you and Mach4 not get along? Is there something I should be aware of about Mach4? I haven't ever used it but it seems to have the capabilities that I require for my future projects.
    I also have 4 huge Kuka robots with complete control electronics from the 80's that I would love to be able to control manually with an articulated joystick for unloading my laser using electromagnets as the end effector. Each one has a reach of 8 feet and can handle 330 pounds. It seems to me that a fairly basic master/slave encoder based articulated arm arrangement integrated directly to the robot servo drives might be feasible. Any thoughts on that?

    I am perusing the info related to your suggestions and I have a lot of things going on right now so it may be a while before I can get back to you but I will have numerous questions so I hope you don't mind leading me in the right direction over the long term. Thanks for your help!

    Marc



  4. #4
    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: 6 Axis Press Brake control retrofit

    You are quite welcome.

    The particular Galil product would be dictated by the end use. For the press brake I would go with a DMC-4080 or a DMC-1886. That's if I were buying new, but there are some units on the used market on Ebay. In that case a 20x0, 21x0, 18x0 (x = the # of axis), I have also found some 4080s on Ebay.

    As far as programming complexity, that is going to get pretty involved. The Galil units are easy to program, but you will also need a UI front end that will communicate with the Galil. I think Mach4 may work with a Galil 40x0 and 41x0 if they ever finished up the plugin for it, but not sure if that has been completed. Mach3 is compatible with Galil and has an operable plugin. The reason I moved away from Mach3/4 is that I found it lacking in being able to get maximum performance out of industrial machines. It works fine for hobby class machines.

    G and M codes are just the human readable front end that instructs the controls. The CNC control system takes that data and translates it into something the machine can understand. Depending on the system, there might be several layers of translation happening before any machine motion is accomplished. At the lowest level it's all 1s and 0s.

    Interfacing the PoKeys57CNC step & direction output with the servo drives is going to be more trouble than it's worth, and I guarantee that you will never get the servo tuning right. I'm not sure that it's even possible to do. Where the Galil products are designed to run full closed loop servo systems, including hydraulic servo valves. The Galil is a full on industrial motion controller. While the Galil will output step & direction, the primary control is an analog +/- 10V output for each axis along with a very sophisticated PID loop for servo tuning. In addition they have dedicated limit switch inputs for each axis, and up to 80 uncommitted I/O for PLC type functions.

    The robots also sound like a fun project. Even with joysticks you are proabaly going to need a motion controller in the mix. I guess it might be possible to provide the +/- 10V signal to the servo drives directly from the joysticks. In that case the operator would become the motion controller. The encoders in that case would be useless unless the operator can count really fast. For initial testing I would stand back at least 10 ft.


    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


  5. #5

    Default Re: 6 Axis Press Brake control retrofit

    Thanks Jim.
    The Galil boards sound good but they are out of my budget range. I am impressed by the Dynomotion Kflops and Kanalog combination and unless you can give me a reason not to I'm going to go ahead and order them. They seem to have everything I need and speed and high performance are not really necessary for this application. Is there anything else I should get at the same time to make the installation go more smoothly and make a clean and sanitary project? What size and colors of wire would be wise to get and any other little (or BIG!) tips to make everything easier, more efficient and less problematic? I also noticed that there is currently no plugin for Mach4 but with the free software included it seems that the GUI is covered. Am I missing anything? Thanks again for your help.

    Marc



  6. #6
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    Default Re: 6 Axis Press Brake control retrofit

    I think this project can be simpler. Checkout how this machine was retrofired using similar motors to what you have:

    http://cnc4pc.com/Tech_Docs/CNCDirections.pdf

    Arturo Duncan
    http://cnc4pc.com



  7. #7
    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: 6 Axis Press Brake control retrofit

    The Dynomotion products are well thought of and the technical support seems to be excellent, but I have never used them so I can't offer any advice. Before you order, talk to Dynomotion and explain what you want to do. Maybe send a PM to Tom Kerekes. He is an active member of CNC Zone and is one of Dynomotion's gurus. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/members/tomkerekes.html I hate to see you spend money if for some reason the Dynomotion products won't work for your application. The biggest concern I have is the servo valves controlling the ram height. Those are a breed all their own and may require some special code to make them work right. Understand also that the servo valve amplifiers may not take a standard +/- 10V analog input. I ran into that one time and had to install another amp in a system to be compatible with a standard analog signal. You need to do a bit of homework on that one.

    As far as wire colors. Black is normally high voltage power (240/480), but from there anything goes. Red may be 240 or 120 control wiring, white or gray would normally be the return for that. Blue is normally 24VDC +, with white or gray being 24V -. Green or Green/Yellow is always safety ground.

    Then for the low voltage control wiring, any colors are acceptable. I always make sure the wire colors are consistent throughout the project with regard to power and returns, and don't use those colors for anything else. That way I always know that a Violet wire, for instance, is 5VDC +. I normally use 10 (or more) conductor cables because inputs and output are normally in banks of 8 plus Power and Return. Cables come in both numbered and multicolored. I personally like the multicolored, easier to to find the right wire unless you're color blind. 18 to 24 ga is my preference. May be available from Ebay. I have also used Ethernet cables, but they are only 8 conductor. If you use Ethernet cables, make sure you get stranded conductors not solid.

    The only other tip I can really offer is to create an I/O map to facilitate wiring. It's a list that consists of the connection point on each end of a specific wire, the wire color, cable number, and the voltage. I normally create this in an Excel spreadsheet. I have attached a simple example in a .pdf format. This is much easier than trying to follow a drawing while you're wiring. The time spent planning the project will more than pay off in the end.

    Best of luck on this project. If I can be of any help, just shout.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 6 Axis Press Brake control retrofit-io-map-97_804-pdf  
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


  8. #8

    Default Re: 6 Axis Press Brake control retrofit

    Jim
    This is all excellent advice - thank you. Sorry for the delay getting back to you - life (and family medical issue) is getting in the way. I'm still evaluating my needs but it looks like the Dynomotion boards will work very well - I'll keep you posted on my progress.

    Marc



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