Selecting Servos for Laser Cutter


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    Default Selecting Servos for Laser Cutter

    Background:
    I have settled for a 1400x900 china laser which will be shipped without steppers, stepper drivers and control system. It will ship with RECI W8 (150W-180W)Tube and RECI P18 Tube PSU. I have kind of settled for the RuiDa 6334S Controller and am about to find some servos to put on this beauty. The laser head will be a Hybrid Metal and non metal cutting head with Live focus (automatic Z-Axis to track metal sheet if and when it bends during cutting) so there will be some weight to move around but i do not know how heavy it is compared to a normal head. For this reason i have settled for NSK Ground ballscrew.

    I intend to use the laser cutter for cutting 1mm SS, and engraving on thin paper ( I know it is the worst combo :P ) but of course i will also cut 16mm MDF 10mm acryllic and a whole lot of other things. To reduce wear on the Big Tube i will reuse my Laser Diode for simple tasks such as engraving paper and small cutting jobs.

    Problem:
    I need to find a suitabe Servo, ServoDrive and encoder combo to drive my machine. If nessesary I can adjust lead on ballscrew bu im planning to use 10mm. Depending on Servos i even might need to plan for a drive gear reduction like a planetary gearbox.

    I have looked at some "P" models from Yaskawa and also on the kits from AutomationTechnologiesInc(AT) but since I dont have experience with CO2 lasers i now reach out for help.

    Basic questions are Can i reach 30000mm/min or even 60000mm/min with ground ballscrew?
    How big Servos do i need? 400W 750W or even bigger? AT offers some servos at 8Nm but do i need to go that big for a laser?
    Which NEMA size should i shoot for? 23 or 34?
    Which other brands are good?
    Example of models?

    Any information and experience is welcome!

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    Default Re: Selecting Servos for Laser Cutter

    How much was the laser

    Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk



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    Default Re: Selecting Servos for Laser Cutter

    I have not bought it yet.... Waiting to agree on final specs

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    Default Re: Selecting Servos for Laser Cutter

    When you get all the stuff let us know ... I would love to get something to engrave guns and such..

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    Default Re: Selecting Servos for Laser Cutter

    I am still looking for answers.... See first post:

    Basic questions are Can i reach 30000mm/min or even 60000mm/min with ground ballscrew?
    How big Servos do i need? 400W 750W or even bigger? AT offers some servos at 8Nm but do i need to go that big for a laser?
    Which NEMA size should i shoot for? 23 or 34?
    Which other brands are good?

    Still Learning..... :D


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    Default Re: Selecting Servos for Laser Cutter

    Not to many users here who have lasers or have modified one so I'll give my 2cents. I only have a small 40watt CO2

    30000mm/min = 500mm/sec. with a 10mm pitch ballscrew, it will need to spin 3000rpm. That is pretty fast for a ballscrew to spin. You should check with NSK what is the max recommended rpm for that model ballscrew. Keep in mind the length, diameter and how it is bearing mounted will greatly affect how fast it will spin. Most laser cutters are belt driven for speed.

    The size of the motor is also dependent on what kind of mounts are on the laser itseft. If it comes with a nema23 mount, your not going to fit a nema34 motor without modification.

    I haven't used Teknic clearpath servo motors but they look to be really easy to use with integrated drivers. Call them up and speak to a engineer. They can help you choose a motor that will fit. You will need to give them information such as ballscrew size/pitch. Weight of gantry/laser head etc. maximum speed you require.

    Good luck.



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    Default Re: Selecting Servos for Laser Cutter

    1. We have made the test, 400W Servo Motor can reach to 300mm/s, 750W Servo Motor can reach to 600mm/s.
    But, if you use ballscrew to run as such high speed, it has high requirement for the installation of the ballscrew to reach perfect parallelism and squareness, or it will get break easily. Even it was installed perfectly, cause the ballscrew will shake while running, if it runs too fast, it also may get break.
    Thus, our normal recommend idle speed is below 300mm/s.

    2. Your model is generally for cutting, which is not suitable for fast engraving, much less engrave on thin paper.
    Firstly, 150W power laser tube's laser beam is much bigger than lower power laser tube, your engrave quality will not be good enough.
    Secondly, high power laser tube for laser engraving, the laser output frequency is very high, continuously high frequency output with high power, it will hurt the lens of the laser tube, it might get the result of lens burned or cracked.
    Thirdly, considering you will use the autofocus laser head, not like normal laser head, the weight is heavier and with motor on it, you should also considering if it will displace while high speed running.

    3. SS has high reflection to the CO2 laser, your model can cut SS, but can not cut long time everyday, or the life-span of the tube will reduce quickly, maybe 2-3 months you will find the power is not enough any more.

    4. For MDF cutting, there will be lots of smokes, so you should take very carefully of the exhausting system, and don't forget to clean the reflection mirrors and lens very often, if the lens is polluted by the smokes, the laser will burn it.

    Good luck also!

    Eric



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    Default Re: Selecting Servos for Laser Cutter

    That kind of speed will require a lubricated ballscrew, not ideal for a laser. As stated, most are belt driven, since you only need positioning not cutting stiffness.

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    Default Re: Selecting Servos for Laser Cutter

    Thank you very much for the input! In short 750W Servos are what i will be aiming for. For ballscrews it might then be better to have a bigger diameter? I can live with having two tubes for the work but unmount and remount of the head would be to much work if switching between lightweight and metalcutting. Cutting ss is someting i do need but not frequently. This if i go down this lane.....

    Most work will be paper, cardstock cloth and MDF so i guess I tend to build a machine which can do all i need but overshooting my target of having the best machine i can buy for the type of application i have. If i build a machine as i first intended i will end up with a machine which will be suboptimal at everything. But since SS might be only 2-5 % of its use, majority of its use i will have a expensive machine which will likly not deliver the results i am looking for. also it will be expensive to Run and maintain. So maybe a purpose built machine for non metal is better and for SS i can outsource... If i go for belt drive, will I then still need 750W servos to reach desired speeds (need to keep resolution so i can do 2500 dpi fhoto engrave)? or is it better to go for ballscrews anyway? I really want to keep cost down but never if quality of machine or end product is affected...

    A bit off topic:
    I have found an interesting supplier: Keyland laser. What caught my eye was the slightly different machine enclosure. It has rounded corners in the front left and right corners making me believe they designed this themselves and that quality of enclosure could be slightly better than some others. In the end all parts are replacable but for the frame it is not really practical It looks like they can supply good nonmetal cutting machine which I can better customize to one of my uses, which reduces cost of operation and gives a better end result.
    The 1490 machine features: 3mm Steelplate frame (usually 1.5 or 2mm) , lightweight laser head and RECI Tube. Also i will try to reduce price by ordering without controller (Ruida) and mount an Smootieboard V2 + LaserWeb instead. (I am familiar with 3d Printers...) i Will also omit having a water chiller delivered, as i already have an CW5000, air compressor and instead have an extra spare tube included.

    Still Learning..... :D


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    Default Re: Selecting Servos for Laser Cutter

    For ballscrews it might then be better to have a bigger diameter?
    If ballscrew has bigger diameter, will be better, cost will be higher. Normally, for the 1290-1490 model range, we will use φ16.

    If i go for belt drive, will I then still need 750W servos to reach desired speeds (need to keep resolution so i can do 2500 dpi fhoto engrave)? or is it better to go for ballscrews anyway? I really want to keep cost down but never if quality of machine or end product is affected...
    If you go for belt drive, stepper motor will be enough. Belt transmission system will be much faster than the ballscrew transmission. Epilog's engraver model is using belt transmission+special servo motor, speed can reach to 2m-3m/s. Chinese laser company don't have that special servo motor technology, so max speed no more than 1500mm/s.
    2500DPI is etremly high, even Epilog or Trotec can not reach such high resolution. This has relations with laser souce output mode, laser beam's quality, light path installation, equipment stability and the running speed. Normally, smaller model with low power Metel R.F. laser tube will have better engraving performance. Epilog 30W 4030 model DPI is around 1200, our 30W 4030model DPI is around 900, the 1490 with 150W you choose, I think, it can only reach to 200-300 DPI.

    I have found an interesting supplier: Keyland laser.
    Keyland's founder came from Argus Laser, so you will find, we have very similar production line. They are truely manufacturer, steel frame's description can be true also. Other issues I have no idea, and I will not make any comments.

    In a word, there is no such equipment can meet all of your requirement in the world. Considering that, I suggest you can plan for two equipment, one is the laser cutting model for the nom-metal and thin metal cutting, one is the laser engraver with low power for the paper, cardstock and other materials engraving.

    Regards
    Eric



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    Default Re: Selecting Servos for Laser Cutter

    ArgusLaser/Eric: I was told by sales rep that Keyland build their own frame but just yesterday i found same frame from another supplier - JQ Laser. The reputation of JQ versus Keyland from my point of view is bad versus none. JQ dont seem to have any real warranty that works and other aftersale support seems bad. On the other hand i see several people have bought Keyland but nobody has written any comments. Do you know where i could find more information?

    Still Learning..... :D


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    Default Re: Selecting Servos for Laser Cutter

    ArgusLaser/Eric: I was told by sales rep that Keyland build their own frame but just yesterday i found same frame from another supplier - JQ Laser. The reputation of JQ versus Keyland from my point of view is bad versus none. JQ dont seem to have any real warranty that works and other aftersale support seems bad. On the other hand i see several people have bought Keyland but nobody has written any comments. Do you know where i could find more information?
    I have no comment on them, but maybe here below links may offer you some reference.
    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/genera...196-forum.html

    Contact: Eric Cai E-mail: sely@sunic.com.cn Skype: sely.sunic Web: www.arguslaser.net


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    Default Re: Selecting Servos for Laser Cutter

    I have reset my thoughts specs for my laser.... Now I am deciding on drive system. Non metal cutting and lightweight laser head. What kind of servos do i need to reach 1500mm/s - 3000mm/s using a belt transmission? Do i need 750W or will i be fine with a lower power system?

    I want to be able to go as high as 6-900dpi at a lower speed setting but most of my work will be 1-300dpi preferably @ 2-3000mm/s. and i am OK to switch gears on the transmission to gain resolution.

    I have looked aroud and it seems Yaskawa are best according to the community, Industry applications seem to favour Siemens and Panasonic. Also prices differ very much depending on options and power. My alternatives I know of are using Step/Dir type of control signal to operate servodrivers via a SmoothieBoard or Smoothstepper with PMDX breakout (i use smoothie in 3d printers and PMDX for router) Are there other ways? I do prefer to use Mach4 or OctoPrint but iguess it is worth checking out other options. Any recommendations?

    Most calculations to figure out Encoder resolution and "steps" per mm on encoders etc i can manage but to figure out how powerful servos need to be is beyond me.

    Still Learning..... :D


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    Default Re: Selecting Servos for Laser Cutter

    Please keep in mind that I have never owned or built a laser system. Also you are better off at copying someone who has something that has proven to work well than in listening to me or anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bx3mE View Post
    Background:
    I have settled for a 1400x900 china laser which will be shipped without steppers, stepper drivers and control system.
    1400mm x 900mm is the cutting area?

    Great, so without steppers or stepper controls, but what kind of motor mounts will be there?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bx3mE View Post
    so there will be some weight to move around but i do not know how heavy it is compared to a normal head. For this reason i have settled for NSK Ground ballscrew
    I don't see how a precision ballscrew will make up for heavier components. It might give you better precision. But not better speeds or accelerations unless the preload drag is less (which probably isn't a big factor). Those are some pretty big travels to push a small diameter ballscrew with really fast speeds. What kind of lead are you thinking of?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bx3mE View Post
    I have reset my thoughts specs for my laser.... Now I am deciding on drive system. Non metal cutting and lightweight laser head. What kind of servos do i need to reach 1500mm/s - 3000mm/s using a belt transmission? Do i need 750W or will i be fine with a lower power system?
    I assume the belt is superior for speed. Here's the problem though. You haven't mentioned what kind of gearing there is on the motor, or the accelerations you want to achieve.

    Acceleration and deceleration is what uses up the torque. Top speed is just a function of the top speed of the motor and what gearing is used.

    The higher the top speed, the more acceleration you need, if you want the top speed value to be reached on a regular basis.

    3000 mm/s is 118 IPS is 7086 IPM, goodness sakes. Is that pretty normal for a laser?

    So at 1/4 G acceleration, it would take 72 inches to accelerate to top speed. Obviously, far longer than your machine travels.

    At 1G acceleration, it would take 18 inches to accelerate to top speed.

    At 2 G acceleration, it would take 9 inches.

    At 4 G it would take 4.5 inches.

    I was just looking at a video for a commercial laser on youtube, it said >6 G acceleration, not sure if this is typical of most commercial lasers or not. No idea really, I've never gotten into it. That's something you should research.

    So to run those high speeds and accelerations, the mass of the moving parts needs to be as light as possible, the rotor inertia of the motor needs to be low, and the inertia of the components, any spinning gears or reducers, ballscrews, belts, needs to be as low as possible, and on top of that, the machine needs to be rigid enough not to flex much at those accelerations.

    Also, the control software is important, in Mach 3 or 4 for example, you only get to input one acceleration value. So what you can achieve at your top speed is the maximum you can get for the whole speed range. This is bad for steppers (or step servos that have torque vs speed graphs like steppers) where they have less torque at higher RPMs.

    Here is a sample calculation I did for ballscrews including inertial effects

    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/linear...118-cnc-2.html

    See post # 21

    Here is a sample calculation I did for rack and pinion including inertial effects

    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/cnc-wo...-forum-10.html

    See post # 246

    For belts, I don't know, I haven't looked up the math on that. Is this a stationary belt with a rotating pinion or a rotating belt, I honestly don't know how these things are made? I tend to avoid belts, but then again, I've never made a laser CNC. The belt math is similar, I have no doubt, you just find the belt equations and how to calculate moment of inertia for belts online.

    Have you looked at this thread?

    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/open-s...ontroller.html

    Not sure if it's relevant, perhaps they need more testing to prove the concept, I don't know.



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    Default Re: Selecting Servos for Laser Cutter

    Quote Originally Posted by Bx3mE View Post
    Background:
    I have settled for a 1400x900 china laser which will be shipped without steppers, stepper drivers and control system. It will ship with RECI W8 (150W-180W)Tube and RECI P18 Tube PSU. I have kind of settled for the RuiDa 6334S Controller and am about to find some servos to put on this beauty. The laser head will be a Hybrid Metal and non metal cutting head with Live focus (automatic Z-Axis to track metal sheet if and when it bends during cutting) so there will be some weight to move around but i do not know how heavy it is compared to a normal head. For this reason i have settled for NSK Ground ballscrew.

    I intend to use the laser cutter for cutting 1mm SS, and engraving on thin paper ( I know it is the worst combo :P ) but of course i will also cut 16mm MDF 10mm acryllic and a whole lot of other things. To reduce wear on the Big Tube i will reuse my Laser Diode for simple tasks such as engraving paper and small cutting jobs.

    Problem:
    I need to find a suitabe Servo, ServoDrive and encoder combo to drive my machine. If nessesary I can adjust lead on ballscrew bu im planning to use 10mm. Depending on Servos i even might need to plan for a drive gear reduction like a planetary gearbox.

    I have looked at some "P" models from Yaskawa and also on the kits from AutomationTechnologiesInc(AT) but since I dont have experience with CO2 lasers i now reach out for help.

    Basic questions are Can i reach 30000mm/min or even 60000mm/min with ground ballscrew?
    How big Servos do i need? 400W 750W or even bigger? AT offers some servos at 8Nm but do i need to go that big for a laser?
    Which NEMA size should i shoot for? 23 or 34?
    Which other brands are good?
    Example of models?

    Any information and experience is welcome!
    Dmm would be your best choice for Servo Motors Drives, send them an Email or call they will have what you need DMM | AC SERVO DRIVE | AC SERVO MOTOR | ROTARY ENCODER

    You would not be using a Gearbox or a reduction, if you want those speeds which is quite easy to achieve with the right Servo Motor and Drives, what others have posted for servo Motors Drives are not going to be much good for what you want to do

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Selecting Servos for Laser Cutter

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    Dmm would be your best choice for Servo Motors Drives, send them an Email or call they will have what you need DMM | AC SERVO DRIVE | AC SERVO MOTOR | ROTARY ENCODER

    You would not be using a Gearbox or a reduction, if you want those speeds which is quite easy to achieve with the right Servo Motor and Drives, what others have posted for servo Motors Drives are not going to be much good for what you want to do
    I've heard good things about DMM, but have no first hand experience.

    To be clear, I'm not suggesting that the OP use the servomotor controller or motors that are typically used for RC planes on his build. It was mentioned more as a point of interest. I honestly don't know what potential that system has at this point. It just seems very interesting to me.

    The OP was asking which size of servo to use, IMO, that requires a little bit of math and knowledge about the machine specifications like the mass of the moving parts and the specifics of the drive system, be it a belt drive or what not. If those factors are known, then you can calculate what you need to hit your goals. Without those specifics, no one can really tell him what size of servo he needs. Of course, if it is a standard design that alot of people are using, then definitely there are people who can tell him what has worked well for them based on experience. I of course, don't know what kind of design this machine is.

    Not trying to be antagonistic, agreeing with you that I have heard good things about DMM, and also that perhaps the concept I linked to needs a bit more testing, or at least a bit more information, before you can say for sure if it's appropriate or not. Truthfully I haven't looked too hard at it, so that info might already be out there.



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    Default Re: Selecting Servos for Laser Cutter

    Quote Originally Posted by NIC 77 View Post
    I've heard good things about DMM, but have no first hand experience.

    To be clear, I'm not suggesting that the OP use the servomotor controller or motors that are typically used for RC planes on his build. It was mentioned more as a point of interest. I honestly don't know what potential that system has at this point. It just seems very interesting to me.

    The OP was asking which size of servo to use, IMO, that requires a little bit of math and knowledge about the machine specifications like the mass of the moving parts and the specifics of the drive system, be it a belt drive or what not. If those factors are known, then you can calculate what you need to hit your goals. Without those specifics, no one can really tell him what size of servo he needs. Of course, if it is a standard design that alot of people are using, then definitely there are people who can tell him what has worked well for them based on experience. I of course, don't know what kind of design this machine is.

    Not trying to be antagonistic, agreeing with you that I have heard good things about DMM, and also that perhaps the concept I linked to needs a bit more testing, or at least a bit more information, before you can say for sure if it's appropriate or not. Truthfully I haven't looked too hard at it, so that info might already be out there.
    There is no substitute for a real servo system, the RC motors can be good for spindle use, and this control would be good for controlling them, but not for any kind of machine that needs high accuracy, you need a minimum of a 14Bit Encoder for any kind of machine even a simple Router, if you are building something new, the bigger the Encoder count the better the machine will perform 16Bit to 20Bit Encoders are ideal, anything less and you are wasting your money

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Selecting Servos for Laser Cutter

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    There is no substitute for a real servo system, the RC motors can be good for spindle use, and this control would be good for controlling them, but not for any kind of machine that needs high accuracy, you need a minimum of a 14Bit Encoder for any kind of machine even a simple Router, if you are building something new, the bigger the Encoder count the better the machine will perform 16Bit to 20Bit Encoders are ideal, anything less and you are wasting your money
    Any suggestion?

    Still Learning..... :D


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    Default Re: Selecting Servos for Laser Cutter

    Quote Originally Posted by Bx3mE View Post
    Any suggestion?
    I posted a suggestion in post 15, but here it is again, there is not much else to compare there system to, unless you want to go with Yaskawa at 4 plus times the price

    They will also help you choose what is right for your machine

    DMM | AC SERVO DRIVE | AC SERVO MOTOR | ROTARY ENCODER

    Mactec54


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    Default Selecting Servos for Laser Cutter

    A Trotec Speedy 400 is capable of 3500mm/sec (with 5g acceleration) using fast brushless servo motors. As seen in this video, they are fairly small.


    It is belt driven to get that speed.

    You mention Mach4 and smoothieboard. I don't think Mach4 has very good support for laser currently. Do some serious research before choosing this option.

    Smoothieware does supports laser and pwm variable laser power for ok quality raster engravings. (via Laserweb4 software) Its downfall is speed. Max step pulse output is 90khz. That will limit your travel speed depending on your encoder resolution.

    Let's work out some numbers using 3mm gt2 belt and a 30tooth pulley for example. 3000mm/sec max speed.

    3000/90=33.3 revolution/sec
    = 2000rpm. This isn't any problem with a good brushless motor.

    Let's choose a 1000line encoder (4000pulses per rev in 4x quadrature mode)

    Resolution will be
    90mm/4000=.0225mm or 0.000866inch

    For comparison a trotec is 0.0006"

    Let's calculate required steps per second
    4000x33.3rev/sec=133.3khz.

    To fast for smoothieboard. You can try changing pulley diameter or encoder resolution to get down to 90khz.

    You may also want to look at dedicated DSP laser controllers (ruida or AWC). I don't know much about them.

    What I am getting at is there is a whole lot more than just motor speed/torque that will effect your maximum laser travel speed.

    I don't know much about DMM servos. I'm using Parker SM brushless with 1000ppr encoders on my yet to be finished laser build. The above pulley and belt is what I choose but I am only needing 1000mm/sec or less for raster engravings.

    As far as torque goes, I only know what I have here as a example. My small laser goes 350mm/sec using only small 45oz-in stepper motors. My Parker servo motors are capable of 145oz-in at 7500rpm. (200watts) I have no problem thinking that I can't reach 1000mm/sec (or even twice that speed!) using a laser head of similar weight.

    Last edited by jfong; 09-15-2017 at 02:41 PM.


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