UL certificate required for CNC machines HELP !!!!


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Thread: UL certificate required for CNC machines HELP !!!!

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    Default UL certificate required for CNC machines HELP !!!!

    Does anybody has to make a field inspection ?
    I just move the company and the electrical inspector not only check for the compliance to the code of the work done by the electrician , they also look for a UL certification on the machine , of course none of my machines has one , i have matsuura milling ( Japanese ) daewoo and doosan lathes the doosan is 2013 and is not compliance to the osha requirments.
    The city inspector says that the machines has to be approved by any of the OSHA NRTL approved certification companies ( UL , CSA ,etc ) , like none of the machines are they require a field inspection , i talk to different companies and i get a quote for 11000 dollars plus expenses , another give me a price of 8000 , i talk to one of the companies and they told me that for what they seen on the pictures i sent we will have to change the breakers and any other components that are not ul approved , so looking at the machines i have to replace almost everything on them.

    That is ridiculous , if they do not require the manufacturers to comply with UL why we have to face the consequences and spend a ton of money to fix 7 machines ., i have machines from 89 , 98 , 2000 and 2013 and none of them are compliant

    does anybody has any information or has to do this inspection , there still 2015 machines that are not compliance with this , is like to buy a Toyota and can't drive it on the street.

    Thanks

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    Default Re: UL certificate required for CNC machines HELP !!!!

    The local TUV office charges $2500 per visit. Some cities require the NRTL on all equipment, some don't. This is not abnormal, and one of the reasons why some companies like Mori Seiki have UL508 certified panels. Thats one reason I tell people to get the shop inspected then move the equipment in if at all possible. Now you have no choice.



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    Default Re: UL certificate required for CNC machines HELP !!!!

    Yeah, I got hit by that with a panel saw that, even in hind site, had to be in the space before final inspection. Learned a $2000 lesson on when to bring equipment in because even my NA made router doesn't have CSA or UL_c (Canada standards). A company called Intertek did our certification, not sure if they are US too.



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    Default Re: UL certificate required for CNC machines HELP !!!!

    Intertek give me a quote of 11000 plus expenses , eti 7500 But is not on the nrtl list ( the city accept this ), i will try TUV for a quote , i am trying to find out any with an old CNC machine what parts has to replace to comply with them



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    Default Re: UL certificate required for CNC machines HELP !!!!

    You will need approved main and sub breakers before any control transformer, motor contactors in some cases, and they will need to inspect the bonding. Those are the main components, but once in a while they will find something else. Just be thankful they are not requiring an SCCR rating as well. That can be way more painful in some cases.

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    Default Re: UL certificate required for CNC machines HELP !!!!

    DANIEL HALL

    Contact the machine companies to see if there machines are UL approved, if not they should not of been sold in your area, where the UL is required

    Manufacturers submit products to UL for testing and safety certification on a voluntary basis. There are no laws specifying that a UL Mark must be used. However, in the United States there are many municipalities that have laws, codes or regulations which require a product to be tested by a nationally recognized testing laboratory before it can be sold in their area. UL is the largest and oldest nationally recognized testing laboratory in the United States. UL does not, however, maintain a list of the jurisdictions having such regulations.

    Florida seems to be one of these states that require a UL certification for your machines, not all states require it

    The cost for these inspections are ridiculous, I think someone is getting a payment under the table

    This really is a joke, as most imports from China are not UL approved, & are everywhere, anything above 50v Ac or 75v Dc should be UL approved before anyone buys them

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: UL certificate required for CNC machines HELP !!!!

    in 98 companies that sold in Europe, they had to have ISO 9000

    those companies sure sold machines in Europe..


    if your machines have ISO that might be accepted same way.. just a tought.. I don't have shop with big equipment, but I know around 92 or so started the ISO certification..


    edit:: I just read about the ul is tied to individual machines.. sorry for misleading..



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    Default Re: UL certificate required for CNC machines HELP !!!!

    Just an update , i have to do the inspection by osha requirements and yes start in $11000 plus expenses and another company $17000 , and who nows how much on replacing parts , knowing that i have 2 machines japanese from 1989 nothing on the machine is UL approved will see how much more i have to spend .
    so basically i spend quite some money to move and wages wile still not running , and i can't afford that much money for inspection and if i do not find any cheaper solution i will have to move out of business or sell the machines and buy one or 2 new and UL approved and downsize the shop but honestlly if i have to do that i will change to other type of business
    i regret moving , did not expect so much problems



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    Default Re: UL certificate required for CNC machines HELP !!!!

    California usually requires UL as well, just most of the time they get installed to an existing shop and never get checked. ISO has nothing to do with electrical, and the current standard in most of Europe I believe is CE, which really is a joke, we think it just stands for China export. The only builder I know of from Japan that has a UL508A rated enclosure is Mori, but the entire machine itself is not UL, however that usually enough for the inspector to pass it. Others have UL listed components inside just no certification. That typically adds 2500-4500 on top of the machine cost. SCCR requirements is a whole other issue right now, and will soon be required on anything running over 40 amps per UL508A-2014 once municipalities switch to the current code. That can stack another 10k on the machine price.

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    Default Re: UL certificate required for CNC machines HELP !!!!

    Daniel


    don't take me wrong, but let me ask, 2 question

    are those machines , has market value that could cost the """certification"" plus the part replacing, plus its labor? those machines might don't have the value..
    mightbe for this certification scam could cost you, you could buy a used machine that has ul cert, and they cant charge you...

    you don't have to move those machines to your shop... they can run in your ""hobbyshop"" at your house, and no one has business with...

    another question, if you worked 20 or more year """""illegally""" without certification, what will be different, beyond you looks spending 20K or more ...



    if we talking about joke, then this is a real joke, but unfortunately , its a very costly joke...



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    Default Re: UL certificate required for CNC machines HELP !!!!

    Sorry, but this is not a scam. It's part of the NEC (National Electric Code) and NFPA 70E. This could happen to anyone in any of the 50 states, and eventually it will. If the machine is in place, before the last code change (5-10 Years?), they can be gradnfathered in, but the minute you re-locate that piece of equipment, it will need a NRTL.



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    Default Re: UL certificate required for CNC machines HELP !!!!

    I am Working myself for cnc machines in europe through the ce in spezial machine Order ( in german called maschienenrichtlinie. ..) What exactely is a joke There ? The only joke i See Chinese suppliers Do bring nice papers But aß i have Seen on a Lathe the Electric was Not even connected But how can you Sue or get you rights handeled ?
    ..

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    Default Re: UL certificate required for CNC machines HELP !!!!

    im not sure if many remember when seatbelt was implemented to cars..

    there was a certain time, that cars, were not equipped by factory, the cops couldn't fine you..

    so I think if a machine worked 15 year without ""ul listing""" there should be some simplified procedure..

    why inspection start with 11000? just because its a business and I can charge? what will be next? you walk in lowes, and lowes selling you a hammer, for 1000 dollar because you can afford?


    yes I agree, need everything be safe, due your worker souldnt get electric shock..
    it just alittle too much

    for 20K people need to work... it doesn't comes free..

    yes there must be inspection... but this is clearly overcharging folks...

    for 11000 you can travel 3 times around the world and living a 2 week in a luxury hotel, and still you going to make a half day the inspection with a 200 dollars equipment...
    its likely standnding behind corner and the one comes I can rob him out.. by law...

    folks, those machines not individually made.. just like original poster said likely you buy a car at dealership...
    and next day the department charge you for 5 grand, because the taillight not ul listed...


    every single business keeping lower the unemployments.. by this they should deserve more respect than penalize them..

    Last edited by victorofga; 06-11-2015 at 10:33 PM.


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    Default Re: UL certificate required for CNC machines HELP !!!!

    But that tail light would be DOT approved. Too many sketchy machines from overseas showing up.

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    Default Re: UL certificate required for CNC machines HELP !!!!

    yes, new machines and new shops.. but this is an exist business..

    this is not inspection cost... if this business lay out folks, he doesn't have to pay the unemployment.. because his business was broken by government.. hes not responsible for greedy charges..
    city has to check on safety, but they also has to count on there are employees and employees family...

    on one side they might get that 1100 grand, or... they don't get the 11K and pay a year long 2-3 or more employee unemployment..

    someone just need a paper and pencil and using 3rd grade math......



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    Default Re: UL certificate required for CNC machines HELP !!!!

    It is a new shop, just old machines. Fair or not, it's the law. In this country, 3rd world electrical won't fly, and people still try. That's the reason for inspections. Its national code that's being inforced. Its not that much money for multiple machines, and it is a fair amount of work to certify. Its not a walk in and tag. They dig very deep, even checking wire types.

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    Default Re: UL certificate required for CNC machines HELP !!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by victorofga View Post
    his business was broken by government.
    The UL inspection has nothing to do with the Government, it has no Government connection whatsoever

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: UL certificate required for CNC machines HELP !!!!

    Ul as a company no, as code it is a NRTL lab. NRTL is part of NFPA70e and OSHA code. They are all mingled together and are inforced by local governments. UL has two parts, one being a not for profit, this is where the codes come from, the other is for profit and this is training etc. UL is not always the way to go. TUV is typically less for inspections and being a NRTL lab has to be accepted. In the 20s, electricians died on a daily bases. Codes were made, modified, and today its rare for an electrician to be killed.

    I'm NFPA and UL508a certified, I can say without question, these new codes and regulations are there because someone got hurt.

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    Default Re: UL certificate required for CNC machines HELP !!!!

    underthetire
    We don't care what you are certified for, this is about someone else that is needing only to have his machines UL certified

    All he required was his machines to be Ul certified, this is not connected to any government body, only the local electrical inspector

    One concern when buying modern machinery is the safety of the equipment. No one wants to buy a product that could malfunction and hurt the operator or someone nearby. Because of this concern various organizations have been created to verify the safety of products.
    UL is one of the oldest testing agencies in the country and provides certification on the safety of products as well as their environmental claims. However the UL marks may be confusing for people who are not familiar with their terminology. There is no such thing as general UL approval, instead they break up their certification into being listed, recognized, or classified. Once you know the difference between these three terms it becomes much easier to understand the dozens of marks that UL puts on products.
    The UL listing service verifies that a manufacturer can make products that fulfill UL requirements, meaning that any product with the UL listed mark is produced by a company that limits product risks that can be reasonably foreseen. UL does not test each product in this case, instead they authorize the manufacturer to test their products and apply the UL listed mark themselves. However, UL does follow up with the manufacturer on a regular basis to make sure they are following correct procedures to test their products.
    The UL recognition service is different in that it does not apply to end products. Instead it certifies that a component for a larger product meets UL standards. This mark is not seen as often by consumers, as the parts that get this certification are things like circuit boards and power supplies. These components are normally put into products in factories and may have limited use outside of another machine. Again, UL authorizes the manufacturer to test and label their parts with this mark and follows up regularly to ensure continued compliance with the certification.
    UL classification service is the most nuanced of the three. According to UL’s terminology guide, the UL classification service is used “for the purpose of classification or evaluation with respect to one or more of the following: (1) specific risks only, e.g., casualty, fire or shock, (2) performance under specified conditions, (3) regulatory codes, (4) other standards, including international standards, or (5) such other conditions as UL may consider desirable.” This allows UL to have a wide array of marks in this area to give specific information to consumers about the standards of a product. For instance, the UL Classified Water Quality Mark certifies that a product is able to provide suitable drinking water for products such as filtration systems or water treatment additives.
    UL is not the only company to provide safety certification.
    The Low Voltage Directive (LVD) applies to all electrical equipment, with a few exceptions, that is designed or adapted for use between 50 and 1,000 volts AC or 75 and 1,500 volts DC. All manufacturers or importers of electrical equipment that fall within this scope should ensure that their products conform to the requirements of the LVD. Manufacturers who do so can affix a valid CE Marking to their products to indicate conformity.

    Manufacturers submit products to UL for testing and safety certification on a voluntary basis. There are no laws specifying that a UL Mark must be used. However, in the United States there are many municipalities that have laws, codes or regulations which require a product to be tested by a nationally recognized testing laboratory before it can be sold in their area. UL is the largest and oldest nationally recognized testing laboratory in the United States. UL does not, however, maintain a list of the jurisdictions having such regulations.

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: UL certificate required for CNC machines HELP !!!!

    I was trying to help in that he does not need the expensive UL he can get ANY NRTL cert and be in code. CE is NOT acceptable in this case, so not sure where that came from, nor is CE recognized in the US period.

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    Last edited by ger21; 06-12-2015 at 06:54 PM.


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UL certificate required for CNC machines HELP !!!!

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