Reasons NOT to buy RhinoCAM!

[Hirudin]

This program is worse than freeware in MANY respects! Gee, I wish I didn't spend $900 on this thing.

1. For some reason, you cannot copy and paste toolpaths using Ctrl + C and Ctrl + V. Yes, apparently MecSoft hasn't really caught up to Windows 3.1 yet.

2. You cannot undo changes made to your toolpaths. Even though the keyboard shortcuts for copy and paste are not enabled, accidentally hitting the delete key will permanently erase your work.

3. Loading tools is cumbersome. Tool Libraries can be saved into two different types of files for some reason. The standard type does not save the tools' speeds and feeds (of course, RhinoCAM doesn't warn you about this). If you want to really save your library you need to use the other file format.

4. Toolpath creation methods do not work. Check out this thread on the RhinoCAM forum where I pointed this out to them...
http://www.mecsoft.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=6276

5a. The software is buggy. I've had Rhino crash on me about 6 times while working with RhinoCAM. I've never had it crash before.
Recently a new bug has shown up where it DOES NOT SAVE YOUR WORK about 50% of the time.
5b. They only seem to update RhinoCAM when a new version of Rhino is released.

6. Bug reports are met with hostility and insults. Check the thread linked above for which I was banned from the MecSoft "Support" Forum.
Unfortunately you cannot see pictures posted to the MecSoft forum unless you log in. If anyone is interested, I can re-post the pictures here.

7. Tool selection is artificially limited. For instance Drilling operations only allow you to select drills and center drills from your tool library. At first this may make sense. But if you're like me and use a "vee mill" to do your spot drilling you're out of luck.

8. The user interface is unrefined.

For instance, the MOp (machine operations) creation interface is "always on top" (meaning the window is displayed above all other windows, regardless if Rhino is the active program or not. Even minimizing the main Rhino window will not get rid of the MOp creation dialog, neither do clicking the "Show Desktop" button in Windows 7 nor does hitting "WinKey + D" on the keyboard.

Another curious UI decision is that MecSoft did not include a way to access the speeds and feeds calculator from the tool creation dialog. If you're in the middle of creating a new tool and you'd like to use the calculator to enter all the different speeds automatically you have to...

• Save the tool (even though at the moment it's incomplete)
• Create a new MOp (yes, the only way to get to the calculator is through the MOp dialog)
• Go into the speeds and feeds tab
• Click the "Load From Table" button
• Struggle with the poorly made calculator to get the parameters you want
  THEN
• Open your newly created tool again
• Manually copy all the values from the MOp to the tool
• Save the tool again
  See attached picture

9. The simulation mode is very inaccurate, too fast, and too slow - all at the same time.
Inaccurate - The virtual part is very rough. Sometimes areas that should be round are completely square. Arcs and diagonals are jagged. The display is enough to determine if a profile cut is on the correct side of the line, but not a whole lot more.
Too Fast - Sometimes the simulation will complete instantly leaving you wondering just how the part will be cut. If you're watching the simulation to find out in what order features are milled you may be out of luck.
Too Slow - When the part "stock" is displayed it slows my machine to a crawl. My computer isn't the fastest in the world but it's no slouch (Intel Core2Quad @ 2.4GHz (Q6600), 4 GB of DDR3 RAM, nVidia GTX280 video card (1 GB of video memory), OCZ Vertex SSD, running Windows 7 RC1 x64, 2560x1600 display). I get approximately six frames per second when the stock is displayed.

10. The program has very few options. The few options it does have will sometimes they'll inexplicably revert to their default settings - without warning. Sometimes my post processor setting will jump to the top of the list, for seemingly no reason. I've also had the "Output arc/spiral/helix as linear segments" options seemingly randomly reselect themselves.

11. The program checks for updates EVERY TIME IT'S OPENED. This process needs administrator privileges for some reason which means if you're using Vista or Windows 7 you need allow/disallow a UAC window every time the program starts (depending on your UAC settings of course) just to reconfirm MecSoft has not released any updates ([i]see 5b above[/b]).

12. Features that were present in RhinoCAM version 1.0 Basic have been removed from RhinoCAM version 2.0 Standard. Want to edit your toolpaths like you did with the old version? That'll be another $3199 to upgrade to PRO.

[harryn]

Software is a love / hate relationship. Rhino is pretty powerful, but I have also heard from others about the frustration. I won't contaminate your thread with my own less than ideal experiences with design software, as this is not a strong area for me.

I honestly would ask for my money back. I assume you paid with a credit card, so maybe canceling the payment is an option? If you puchased it through a dealer, perhaps they will help you.

As a last resort, but sometimes necessary, call their customers service line and tell them that you are not happy with the product. You wish to return it for a full refund, and be nice but firm about it. If they give you a hard time, tell them they have two choicess
- Refund your money or
- That you will be filing a complaint with the Better Busieness Bureau and will copy your congressman on the complaint, along with the fact that you plan to post your experiences on the internet.

Obviously, your congressman doesn't give a squat about your problems (none do), but it makes people nervous, and no one wants bad publicity over a $ 1,000 sale.

[Craig_Preston]

As a representative from MecSoft, I can address the issues and what may be the purposeful deceipt from Hirudin. However, please note we will not have an all out debate on a public forum - as I've been a member of forums since the BBS days, and this behavior is unprofessional and rarely resolves anything.

What I can say is that Mr. Hirudin did show up on the MecSoft forum with some questions on some problems he was faced with. Unfortunately, our request, as well as the request from other users attempting to help this individual - for more specific information, went unanswered. It was apparent that there was not going to be any way for this user to provide purposeful information - as opposed to simply trolling. Many of those accusations are not based on reality (which I find is the nicer way of saying they are completely untrue) :-)

For those who have experienced challenges with any software they use, and attempt to resolve it in good faith - whether with the manufacturer or trying to get help from friends/colleagues/etc., they understand that in order to be successful there needs to be complete disclosure while working with whomever you have asked for help.

After numerous antagonistic posts, and after continually denying to provide any specific information to OTHER USERS ATTEMPTING TO ASSIST HIM/HER, we felt that the post was not worth leaving on the forum. Of course, the usual path for these types of "differences" results in the user calling us to ask why they are unable to log on to their account. Either trolls, or the competition, who obviously have alot of time on their hands to go generate this type of misinformation, never call in. To the best of my knowledge, I don't believe this person has called in to our support line since being banned.

So apologize to all users who have now wasted their valuable time reading this "dirty laundry", and then having to read my response. If you are a new user interested in a CAM package that works with Rhino, then ask yourself:

1) How could we have thousands of users worldwide?
2) and how could we develop such a fantastic relationship with Bob (McNeel) and virtually everyone at his company (many of whom we go beyond business, and actually call them our friends)?

If our software and support were so bad, you wouldn't be able to actually call our customers who we post in our testimonials and case studies, and find out differently. We invite you to do so.

If you have any additional questions, I invite you to contact me directly. We advertise here with our friends at CNC Zone, and I am attempting to frequent these forums more, to make access easier for you guys/gals.

[harryn]

Hi Craig,

I have no idea if the problem is the end user or the software, but I did look at his thread in your forum prior to it being deleted. Obviously, he appears to be frustrated.

In the end, it raises a basic question for me - what is your policy regarding refunds? If I were to buy the software, and was not happy with it - will you provide a full refund, and for how long is this refund option available to me?

I just finished watching a youtube video called "United Breaks Guitars", which of course was not entirely their fault, but nonetheless, I am sure they wish they had dealt with the situation earlier and faster with a refund.

Just food for thought from a fellow Business Development Professional.

Take care,

HarryN

[ger21]

Harry, there are very few software companies that I'm aware of that offer refunds. That's what demo's are for. When buying software, it's extremely important that you do the research up front so that you know what you're getting before you pay for it. Most of the more expensive packages will work with you prior to purchase so you can be sure of what you're getting.

[jalessi]

Several of Hirudin's complaints might have be solved if they coded the features he is asking for.

There is a touch of frustration in his post however it seems very well documented and thought out.

Personally I don't believe Hirudin is making posts to undermine Mecsoft, he needs the software to do certain tasks.

You know this would not be a debate or much of a issue if Hirudin purchased a expensive power tool at Sears and it did not do what he wanted it to do.

If you cant make the customer happy a expeditious refund is the best solution and great P.R.

Even if the product is perfect why would the manufacture want a unhappy customer.

A public debate or defense makes no sense.

Jeff...

[Craig_Preston]

HarryN,

Thank you for the note. Regarding refunds, we are very similar to many other small software developers. We will provide refunds based on a few conditions:

1) the software doesn't do what is advertised. The good thing here, is that our V.P. of Sales knows the software very well, and as she is not your stereotypical "salesperson", I know she doesn't overstate the software. Thus, the issue becomes what the buyer "perceives" - and as you know, from our end we attempt to eliminate that as much as we can from our end.
2) if the user attempts to work with our technical support to resolve the issue, are friendly and respectful, and can determine in 30 days it just isn't going to work, then we also offer refunds.

Unfortunately, like so many small software developers, you get bit by those who expect the world (despite being told the contrary throughout the sales cycle), and then those who simply won't work with a technical support person no matter what...this is not exclusive to this industry, as I've worked for large companies like Intergraph and Autodesk, as well as small manufacturers - and yet they all see the same range of customers.

Then, unfortunately, we have the not-so-upfront-about-their needs types. I would say, regardless of industry, I see at least a dozen of these people per year (and I am only one guy on a team of people). They are the hobbyists, enthusiasts, or job shops, etc. who believe it is fair to buy software for a small project they have been working on. Within 30 days they complete the project, then attempt to return software.

When I was doing sales, we would even have some people blatantly tell us they just had one job to run - so it was easy to set their expectations up front (and let them know they just can't return the software without any substantive reason for doing so).

This is the fine line companies end up walking. When consulting with companies, I often attempt to persuade them of the easy to return refund type policy. It is so easy for people to go on and shout from the nearest forum these days online, why even hassle with it? However, the reality is with many of these people there is considerable time and effort put in prior to the sale, where margin has been reduced to essentially nothing.

Over the years, I think these types of policies work themselves out. I think most who have worked with our company have found the staff to be friendly, courteous, and professional. The attitude is definitely representative of the owners attitudes, as they are very nice people. I'm originally from the Chicago area, moved to So.Cal 9 years ago, and sometimes the "laid back" attitude isn't quite as decisive as even I'd like it to be :-) LOL

We simply ask that our partners/customers have the same courteous and respectful attitude. This type of situation doesn't occur all that often, so it is just a shame that out of the vast amount of licenses sold every year, we'll have to defend one, perhaps two, of these types of online situations.

[Hirudin]

For the record, I haven't called MecSoft. When my files stopped saving properly with RhinoCAM I resolved to find myself a new CAM program. Also, since I'm running Windows 7 I didn't think it was worthwhile to call tech support only for them to refer me to their minimum system requirements. I do have a lot of time on my hands, but not THAT much.

As I said in the thread on the MecSoft forum: my problem with RhinoCAM isn't "I can't make it work" my problem is that "it's more difficult than it should be".

You're right Craig Preston, other users offered "solutions" which I ALREADY FURNISHED AND REJECTED in a post more than a month earlier and asked me to supply answers to questions that were unrelated to the problem. So "G.M." doesn't know what I'm milling... but he thinks I'm being BOTH too aggressive AND too conservative. Gee G.M., I'm not sure how YOU attaining that information would magically reduce the number of random DIAGONAL lines in my SQUARE pocket. My Taig cannot hold a 1/2" end mill, and again I fail to see how HIS machining conventions will make RhinoCAM work any differently.

For the record: I've been trying the competition (actually, more expensive programs) and I gotta say I'm losing faith in finding something that's even remotely in my price range that doesn't have problems equal to (or worse) than RhinoCAM. Who knows, maybe I'll end up upgrading to RhinoCAM Pro.

[Craig_Preston]

For the record, I haven't called MecSoft. When my files stopped saving properly with RhinoCAM I resolved to find myself a new CAM program. Also, since I'm running Windows 7 I didn't think it was worthwhile to call tech support only for them to refer me to their minimum system requirements. I do have a lot of time on my hands, but not THAT much.

- If I understand your implication, without calling us, you are implying that our technical support will start by asking you remedial questions about your system?

If yes, I would suggest that dare to live on the edge, be all that you can be, blaze your own trail, and give Uday a call in tech support. You may be pleasantly surprised...

If not, please clarify.

Without diving into all points (again, we'd be happy to go through it with you in person - on the phone), I can assure you that some of the points you posted were so far off base, that some were either completely incorrect or can be corrected quite easily (a simple check box alteration, etc.) Your refusal to personally speak with us - yet make assumptions about a software you apparently are not familiar with (despite you having a previous version) just sounds suspicious.

Even better, email me your contact information, and I will have technical support call you - that way you don't even have to pay for the phone call. The only risk you'd take is learning that RhinoCAM has been around for many years and has thousands of satisfied customers around the world for a reason.

Come on...try it...give us a call...I double dog dare you! :-)

[Hirudin]

Wow, you're offer is so genuine and heartfelt, how can I refuse?

I just may be forced to take my "hostility and insults" remarks back!

[Craig_Preston]

Wow, you're offer is so genuine and heartfelt, how can I refuse?

I just may be forced to take my "hostility and insults" remarks back!

Well, we'd appreciate it if you did take back those comments. After all, we want to keep our perfect record (in 12 years and thousands of customers, not once has our support, or our staff been called hostile).

Even when customers are out on their own (running Windows 7 - which isn't even support by Rhino yet, nonetheless RhinoCAM), and we are willing to try and help, if they don't call us, it makes it awfully difficult to get them up and running - even if the fault is caused by something other than our software.

FWIW, I do know of someone I believe who has gotten RC to work on Windows 7...although you are correct in assuming it is not yet supported (and as I mentioned, I don't believe Rhino is supported as of yet either).

[fretsman]

Hirudin, was this ever resolved? I'm also looking for a Cam program for Rhino 4.0 and was curious to know if this now works for you since you have a Taig like I do.

Thanks,
Dave