RF45 Quill radial play

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    Question RF45 Quill radial play

    Hello forum,

    I've got a RF45 mill that I have converted to CNC. The mill makes chips and it is fun to use it, but the design issues have surfaced out as I started using indexable carbide tooling such as 2 flute 21mm roughing mill or similar tooling.

    My conclusion is that the quill, even tho it is retracted fully, has too much play within the gear head housing bore. Do you guys have any experience in eliminating the quill's play in this particular machine?

    I think I'll try to replace the quill end stop grub screw with a longer one that should apply more force at the keyway (I don't use the quill, only the Z axis) and I am also considering to drill 4 holes at the milling head's nose to add 4 lock bolts there in order to grub the quill better...

    What is your opinion here?

    Cheers

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    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    Hello ZeljkoM, I am a newbie,(joined today),and am interested in your query. Have you measured the radial run-out? I have a RF-45 clone and twice when changing head height have been interrupted and when I returned usually a day or two later have resumed where I left off but have forgotten to check that head was locked in Z-axis and wondered at cutting/finish problems so now have the habit of triple checking everything and if I move head immediately lock it again. I mention this as you stated the you do not use the quill but only the Z-axis so I would like to know what you have done to remove any play on the dovetail? About the only thing I can think of would be many hours fettling with a scraper.



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    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    Evening Onan, welcome to the forum!



    I have measured the runout when I have been aligning the gear head square to the table. I can’t really remember what was the runout at that time. It was noticeable that when a force was applied the run out would increase.

    I have also noticed this issue with the Z axis "play". I believe it is caused by the coupling bush that is poorly made. You can see that a lot of folks have replaced that bush when they have converted the mill to cnc. I will have to strip mine apart and also replace the same bush with a solid piece. I have already fabricated the new stepper motor mounts that will allow me to adjust the ball screw better than it is done now.

    The problem that you are describing is more kind of "axial" drop of the milling head. The issue I am having is the radial play of the quill within it's bore in the milling head. I will push hard to finish my new control enclosure during this weekend and if I manage to run ahead of schedule I'll document the play of the quill before and after I hit it with full weight of my ideas.




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    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    I have noticed this issue as well, if I get you right. My quill shows a lot of movement when it's unlocked if I apply a force to it. Of course, it's impossible to drill using the quill while it's locked so all drilling operations seem to suffer from this.



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    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    Quote Originally Posted by j3dprints View Post
    I have noticed this issue as well, if I get you right. My quill shows a lot of movement when it's unlocked if I apply a force to it. Of course, it's impossible to drill using the quill while it's locked so all drilling operations seem to suffer from this.
    My problem is play even when the quill is retracted all the way in and locked... It makes use of my 21mm indexable roughing mill quite unpleasant. I have stripped the machine down in order to make some modifications and I've found that the quill's locking mechanism was not set properly. There are two cylindrical dogs that grip around the side of the quill and one of mine has rotated by 90 degrees (194F - credit to This Old Tony), making only partial contact with the quill. Finding this was not enough to stop me in doing what I've already planned. The quill is going to become history in my shop, on this mill. I'll post up pictures when I'm done.



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    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    Ah, ok. I mean I have it like this - - perhaps not as bad. You have the same thing but even with the quill locked and it retracted?

    If anyone could advise me as to a thread on how people address this issue I'd be grateful.



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    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    Quote Originally Posted by j3dprints View Post
    Ah, ok. I mean I have it like this - - perhaps not as bad. You have the same thing but even with the quill locked and it retracted?

    If anyone could advise me as to a thread on how people address this issue I'd be grateful.
    That's exactly what I'm having problem with.
    Try to pull out your quill completely and check if the quill's locking mechanism is aligned properly. It is made out of two cylindrical parts which are cut at 45degrees Centigrade or 113 Fahrenheit (credit goes to #ThisOldTony ) and check if both are aligned properly. I'll post a picture of this part later today. I'm not sure if this will help, but you can give it a try.

    I decided to install an "anchor flange" between the quill and the gear head. The anchor flange to the quill is made on press fit tolerance. I have picked up the flange that I've designed from the local CNC shop today.
    The gear head housing had to be modified slightly... You'll see it soon. Just don't hold your breath till the pictures come up cause it's gonna take a while.



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    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    Here is what I am doing (or at lease wanting to do) to my RF45 mill.

    The picture shows a model of the quill together with an oddball toolholder and an endmill. I'm not sure why I've pulled it out from my geared head with a toolholder and an endmill, but I guess I can always return to my CAD software and remove the tool out & take another screen shot...


    On this picture I've attached an "anchor flange" that I've designed;


    Here is another picture that I took while the darn thing was falling off my work bench;



    The "anchor flange" in it's full detail and all features is presented here;


    You can see that the back side, the side that mates with the gearhead has some additional features. These are actually designed to be my "plan B" in case I'd need to weld the cunt to the quill's body. That way I'd have my welds under the mating surface.




    My plan is to press fit this flange on the quill (which is already in the freezer for the overnight sleep) and if the tolerances have worked out well I'll have it there for good. If the tolerances are messed up I'll still have a shot at welding the cunt down. We are talking about a Chinese clone of a Chinese cloned mill here, so please let's keep the tolerances and wrapping out. I don't think that it can be worse than it was before

    The gear head had to be machined in order to accept the new anchor flange. I've had the gearhead stripped and sent to my friend's machining shop. I was not there at the time to take the pictures so I'll tell you what they've done in few steps. You can build a picture in your mind and colour the machines to your favourite colour (let me know what grade of Hammerite grey it was! )

    - 1st they have used a large track saw to chop off the nose where the quill used to sit against when it was fully retraced.
    - the gearhead's spindle nose was faced on a Bridgeport knee kind alike mill with 160mm facing mill.
    - Left side of the gearhead's housing was faced square to the spindle nose (or the surface where the gearbox cover sits) with the same 160mm face mill. This surface is made square for the HS spindle mount that I'm going to attach to this mill.

    I'm sorry to post this post without the real pictures. I'm terrible at taking photos, but I promise I'll do my best to post few shots by tomorrow evening.

    Let me know if something is not clear, if you have any concerns about the modifications that I'm, hm, planing or any other comments.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails RF45 Quill radial play-screen-shot-2017-10-07-16-01-a   RF45 Quill radial play-screen-shot-2017-10-07-16-00-a   RF45 Quill radial play-screen-shot-2017-10-07-16-00-a   RF45 Quill radial play-screen-shot-2017-10-07-15-11-a  

    RF45 Quill radial play-screen-shot-2017-10-07-15-12-a  


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    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    I think you went overboard on the number of retaining screws. 3 or 4 would be plenty at M6x1.0 or 1/4"-20, with each screw providing over 1000lbs of clamping force with even the cheapest grade 2 screws.

    It does look nice!

    Mike



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    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    Quote Originally Posted by ninefinger View Post
    I think you went overboard on the number of retaining screws. 3 or 4 would be plenty at M6x1.0 or 1/4"-20, with each screw providing over 1000lbs of clamping force with even the cheapest grade 2 screws.

    It does look nice!

    Mike
    I'm totally with you on the bolts Mike!
    The thing is, I'm not sure which one of these will be able to find a solid cast iron to thread in to. The mill that I'm having (I like to referee to it as a copy of a copied product) has the quill locking handle on the front face. Front lower right corner to be precise. The hole is dangerously close to the lower wall where the spindle nose is parked so placing a hole there and tapping it securely will be a big challenge. As promised, I'll post up few pictures today and you'll see where I'm going with this.

    Thanks for the compliment Mike!



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    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    Evening all, here is my update for today.

    The gear head housing is back home. It has been at the local machining shop.



    The old spindle nose parking place has been removed flat. It should be parallel with the top of the housing where the gearbox cover bolts on. I've never bothered to take any measurements to check that it is parallel... Shame on me.


    As mentioned earlier, the hole for the quill lock mechanism has been a headache. We took minimal cuts in order to have the deck as strong as possible.


    And this is how the face looks like after cutting


    I have used the hot air gun to heat up the anchor flange. some parts of the mill were used around the flange to trap the heat...



    The quill has spent entire night in the freezer


    I've used a peace of cloth and some WD40 to wipe all of the mating surfaces clean. I could not resist to spray the quill with the WD40 before I slid it on the flange. At this moment I took the quill and I've rotated it on the anchor flange until they became good friends and would not separate form each other. That's done I'd say.



    I've left the assembly to equalise the temperature while I went for break. I've actually took lunch. The food was great but I think it's too much for this forum to handle.


    Now I need to drill and tap the mounting holes, but first I have to find something that would fit inside of the quill lock cavity.


    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails RF45 Quill radial play-img_0231-jpg   RF45 Quill radial play-img_0235-jpg   RF45 Quill radial play-img_0233-jpg   RF45 Quill radial play-img_0238-jpg  

    RF45 Quill radial play-img_0240-jpg   RF45 Quill radial play-img_0243-jpg   RF45 Quill radial play-img_0245-jpg   RF45 Quill radial play-img_0250-jpg  



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    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    This original quill lock seemed as one really serious candidate for the job.


    I have cleaned it with brake cleaner and I gave it a little bit of rubbing with a sand paper before applying some of this cement


    Both front and aft peaces have been glued inn.



    Here is how the business end looks like now!


    I've also continued with my Z axis mount mod. I had to flip the ballnut for my new arrangement and I also had to make somer adapters... The motor that I am using right now is half the length of the one that will be mounted here. I'm using this one only for fitment check.


    Here I've painted the housing blue, but you might be able to recognise blue masking tape on the area that has been milled flat in order to accommodate a 24k rpm spindle.




    That's all for today folks. I hope I'll catch time to continue with work tomorrow.

    Till then feel free to share your thoughts about the mod with the forum.
    Cheers!

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails RF45 Quill radial play-img_0251-jpg   RF45 Quill radial play-img_0252-jpg   RF45 Quill radial play-img_0255-jpg   RF45 Quill radial play-img_0266-jpg  

    RF45 Quill radial play-img_0263-jpg   RF45 Quill radial play-img_0268-jpg   RF45 Quill radial play-img_0271-jpg  


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    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    Oh, I've forgot to add that the cemented quill locks worked great! I was able to drill and tap them with ease! Only one hole ended up being waisted.
    That anchor should do one nice job here! Can't wait to give it a shot with 63mm face mill!



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    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    Oh nice very nice. I finally admit I now see what you've done - you've MATED the quill to the head, so it's no longer a quill but will be a lot more solid? So are you gonna drill with the z-axis?



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    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    That's right, it is not gonna move from the housing any more.

    Yes, I'll have to drill with the Z. In order to gain some speed on the Z I'm planing to counter balance it.



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    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    I've done some more work on the RF45 today.
    The saddle is installed and it is moving up and down the Z axis. The fastest speed that I run it was 3m/min. I'll see if I can move it quicker.
    I have noticed that my steppers are having a lot of ringing on certain (resonant?) speeds. I'll try to micro step them one step higher and I hope it will help. What's your experience with stepper ringing?



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    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    Howdy forum!

    Here is the outcome of my quill modification:


    I'm sorry I can't tell you how it runs. I am experiencing problems with Kmotion and Windows Updates....

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails RF45 Quill radial play-belt-drive-jpg  


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    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    Howdy forum,

    The Kflop was never a real problem. The real problem was in between the chair and the keyboard.

    So the machine is running. I've got about 6920 rpm on the spindle with the drive set to work at 120Hz top speed and the pulleys set to 1:2 ratio.
    I have made few test cuts and I see that the counter balance of the Z axis is welcome. Even with the large nema 34 stepper I am having trouble stoping the Z axis on G0 moves. G1 moves are achievable at 3m/s. A 60kg counter balance is what I plan on using.

    Interesting thing is that I've used 1:2 step up stage for all my tests and at one point I've stuffed a 63mm face mill and run it at 200rpm (that’s about 100rpm on the motor shaft). I did 1mm DOC in aluminium and the drive torque was only just above 20%ish while cutting 20mm wide bar of aluminium. Makes me wonder if I should have opted for 2 pole motor instead and run it with no reduction (1:1 ratio).
    Motivated with this finding I took my thick leather glove and I've pushed the larger pulley to act as a brake pad upon it. The motor speed was at 100rpm and the shaft that I was braking on was at 200rpm. I tried my best to stall the motor but I couldn't. The drive torque was on 50% peak as I was attempting to stall the motor! I am really impressed with the open loop vector control drive. This thing is totally worth every cent!



    I made a video of me cutting aluminium but the phone was on the mill and the image is really shaky. I’ll do a better job tomorrow.


    Till then, have a look at the IMO Jaguar VXR 2,2kW 230V AC inverter drive specs. I’ve payed about 330GBP + VAT for the drive and I was a bit skeptical in the beginning. Now I think I should grab one for my lathe!


    Cheers forum!



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    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    Hi.....whil3e I have absolutely no knowledge of the RF45 layout or it's design butit does still follow to some degree a conventional quill mill head design in that the quill slides up and down in a closely fitted bore........being close is not enough as you still have clearance to take up even when quill locks are applied.

    I have a small jig borer that has a quill too..........after reading the results of the solution to the problem on this thread it occurred to me that this is a sledge hammer to crack a wallnut approach......or so it seems to me.

    I venture to suggest that the quill "could" have been Loctited into the bore it slides in and be forever a fixture....... almost a solid part of the head casting and therefore requires no machining.

    If the quill should ever need to be removed the Loctite can be heated to make it release it's grip and the pristine finish of the two components would not be damaged at all if you need to go back to the original arrangement.

    This is purely a proposal as I have a similar need to secure a quill in a bore.........can anyone see a problem with this approach?
    Ian.



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    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    I think you are missing the point to such an upgrade. It is not only locking the spindle, but the addition of better bearings, and motors for additional speed would be a super benefit as well.
    I had a round column RF30 style machine sitting here for years not being used. It was too large to use as our go to drill press. We have several different kinds and sizes of those already anyway. We keep them setup for the jobs each does.
    I initially planned on cncing it, but the major drawbacks besides the round column was the quill spindle and speed. I did get a good deal on it, so about half price from Harbor Freight. I sold it finally for half of that to the guy that bought my home made 80/20 mill and lathe. Both in working condition.
    All told, I recouped about a tenth of the money that I had in those, but the mill and lathe had already surpassed the ROI at least two fold.

    Sorry for the side track. You mentioned in another thread that no one breaks the mold. I do not recall seeing very many guys on here solve the quill issue on these, so I think this was a very cool project and obviously worth the effort.

    Lee


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