RF45 Quill radial play - Page 2

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 36 of 36

Thread: RF45 Quill radial play

  1. #21
    Member handlewanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    6463
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    I have to disagree to some extent.....if the quill was removed completely the machined bore in the head casting "could" be used to fit bigger bearings and therefore a bigger diam spindle which would lead on to having a spindle with ISO 30 taper.........how ideal would that be.

    It would need some deep thinking to fit the bearings but you do have a machined bore in a casting and that is practically what a mill is all about anyway........maybe even fitting a sleeve to cater for the bearing diams is just a design exercise.

    Even with such a modification the dovetails on the head casting and column would need to be removed and linear rails fitted to make the work practical and worth while.......THEN you would have a Z axis that really came into it's own.

    Dealing with a manual mill that uses a quill has all sorts of problems to overcome if you want to make a silk purse out of a pig's ear........but it can be done.
    Ian.



  2. #22
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Croatia
    Posts
    35
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    Howdy,

    well I see your point. It can certainly be done that way. The only problem I see is having the while gear head stripped dow to be heated up so that locktite would let loose. The way I see disassembly now is very simple. Take the pulley off, take the anchor flange bolts off and slide it out. It is probably out in less than 5 minutes.



    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    Hi.....whil3e I have absolutely no knowledge of the RF45 layout or it's design butit does still follow to some degree a conventional quill mill head design in that the quill slides up and down in a closely fitted bore........being close is not enough as you still have clearance to take up even when quill locks are applied.

    I have a small jig borer that has a quill too..........after reading the results of the solution to the problem on this thread it occurred to me that this is a sledge hammer to crack a wallnut approach......or so it seems to me.

    I venture to suggest that the quill "could" have been Loctited into the bore it slides in and be forever a fixture....... almost a solid part of the head casting and therefore requires no machining.

    If the quill should ever need to be removed the Loctite can be heated to make it release it's grip and the pristine finish of the two components would not be damaged at all if you need to go back to the original arrangement.

    This is purely a proposal as I have a similar need to secure a quill in a bore.........can anyone see a problem with this approach?
    Ian.




  3. #23
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Croatia
    Posts
    35
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    Thanks LeeWay!

    I've just tramed the mill yesterday and I'm off to make some dovetail adjustments before I make some chips today.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeWay View Post
    I think you are missing the point to such an upgrade. It is not only locking the spindle, but the addition of better bearings, and motors for additional speed would be a super benefit as well.
    I had a round column RF30 style machine sitting here for years not being used. It was too large to use as our go to drill press. We have several different kinds and sizes of those already anyway. We keep them setup for the jobs each does.
    I initially planned on cncing it, but the major drawbacks besides the round column was the quill spindle and speed. I did get a good deal on it, so about half price from Harbor Freight. I sold it finally for half of that to the guy that bought my home made 80/20 mill and lathe. Both in working condition.
    All told, I recouped about a tenth of the money that I had in those, but the mill and lathe had already surpassed the ROI at least two fold.

    Sorry for the side track. You mentioned in another thread that no one breaks the mold. I do not recall seeing very many guys on here solve the quill issue on these, so I think this was a very cool project and obviously worth the effort.




  4. #24
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Croatia
    Posts
    35
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    Hey, that is not a bad thinking at all!
    The problem with such approach is in your machining capabilities as you'd need to make the seats for the upper and lower bearings and these should be precisely machined on top & bottom of the quill tunnel. I do not have such capabilities. Beside that, the gear head casting is quite thin walled and I wouldn't want to cut it.

    I was left with two options:
    - simple as possible modification in order to have it machined in reasonable time or
    - complicated designs that are probably going to wait for some slack shop time.

    As a matter of fact, I had problems finding who can do the minimal modifications to the gear head that I've had done as everyone is so busy machining that they have little time for people like me. (Croatia has way lower hour rates than Germany, Swiss, Austria.... so people are busy here!) The funny thing is that the shop owner said he'd do these things for me on a manual knee machine but it is on downtime due to electrical issues, and the parts are not available... you guess it, I've fixed his machine and he did these cuts for me.


    Before making this mod I was having two options:

    1. Purchase the Chinese BT30 spindle with ATC clamp, 6000 or 8000 RPM rated. That would bee supper sexy and easy mod and I would have the ATC capability. Price ~1000EUR for spindle + pneumatics for the ATC. I'd need to make a new spindle housing from scratch.
    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/ATC-...999.270.WK8CMh

    2. KAMI-Machinen ISO30 spindle for RF45 style mill @ about 300-350EUR, new bearings, some light modifications and we are going.

    As this is my hobby, I had to pull for the cheaper option. What do you think of the Chinese spindle? I really fancy giving it a try on some future DIY projects, but I also feel that it is taking too long to build a machine. Maybe a second hand HAAS mini mill would have been a better way forward.

    Edit:
    I forgot to comment on the linear rails that you've mentioned.
    Well, I would be really great to drop a set of these in, but at some point i realised that there needs to be a limit somewhere. To me, this project was a great learning curve. I did manage to make bad moves, and parts of the mill have failed do to my errors, but over all I feel like it was a great fun, and I would miss the experience if I would have bought a VMC. Not to mention that I still have to finish all the HMI, code, all the safety and functions in... Once there is a need for a faster and more accurate machine I'll just have to buy it.

    cheers
    Zeljko



    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    I have to disagree to some extent.....if the quill was removed completely the machined bore in the head casting "could" be used to fit bigger bearings and therefore a bigger diam spindle which would lead on to having a spindle with ISO 30 taper.........how ideal would that be.

    It would need some deep thinking to fit the bearings but you do have a machined bore in a casting and that is practically what a mill is all about anyway........maybe even fitting a sleeve to cater for the bearing diams is just a design exercise.

    Even with such a modification the dovetails on the head casting and column would need to be removed and linear rails fitted to make the work practical and worth while.......THEN you would have a Z axis that really came into it's own.

    Dealing with a manual mill that uses a quill has all sorts of problems to overcome if you want to make a silk purse out of a pig's ear........but it can be done.
    Ian.


    Last edited by ZeljkoM; 11-21-2017 at 04:15 AM. Reason: linear rails


  5. #25
    Member handlewanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    6463
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    Well as the actress said to the Bishop.......love comes at a price......LOL........metaphorically speaking, if you want to modify a manual mill to make it perform in another fashion.......love comes at a price.........the end result is only how far you want to push the enveloper.

    Quite frankly, being a skilled tradesman I do not subscribe to the "it'll do" thought train.....a job not properly done is a job that needs doing again.....but sometimes you have to accept a lesser outcome.

    The modification in the earlier posts is a neat way to achieve the outcome.

    For the record, if the existing quill had an R8 or ISO 30 taper I would Loctite it into the bore.......it's only the bearings that ever need replacing not the whole quill which in that mode becomes just a fixed sleeve.

    A lot depends on the bearing configuration to go to that mode......if it had two angular contacts at the bottom and a sealed radial at the top of the quill, then Loctite it is.

    I suppose a couple of grub screws in the side of the casting pressing against the quill would also work too as a quick fix.
    Ian.



  6. #26
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Croatia
    Posts
    35
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    I know what are you on about, but sometimes inferior design or solution will perform, while a better design or solution will still be on a drawing board or berried in our minds. There was a time when I was 100% sure that I would have linear slides on all 3 axes, ATC, servos and all that fancy stuff on my RF45. Soon I realised that I need a functional mill in order to modify the RF45 the way I wanted... In the world when all the machinists I know locally use their machines for production it became obvious that I need a functional mill, even if it didn't had ATC, linear ways and all that cool stuff. If I'd go trough the whole build again I would certainly do some things differently.

    I know I have spindle bearings replacement coming soon, so I wanted an easy quill removal. I never really tough if it was doable to dismantle the bearing preload nut with the quill still in side of the enclosure. It certainly needs a lot more work as you'd need to pull the motor off, get the gear head cover out of the way... Oh, unfortunately only two bearings are in the spindle. Not sure if it would be possible to add a second bearing on the business end... Certainly worth checking it out. Thanks for the idea.

    Cheers
    Zeljko

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    Well as the actress said to the Bishop.......love comes at a price......LOL........metaphorically speaking, if you want to modify a manual mill to make it perform in another fashion.......love comes at a price.........the end result is only how far you want to push the enveloper.

    Quite frankly, being a skilled tradesman I do not subscribe to the "it'll do" thought train.....a job not properly done is a job that needs doing again.....but sometimes you have to accept a lesser outcome.

    The modification in the earlier posts is a neat way to achieve the outcome.

    For the record, if the existing quill had an R8 or ISO 30 taper I would Loctite it into the bore.......it's only the bearings that ever need replacing not the whole quill which in that mode becomes just a fixed sleeve.

    A lot depends on the bearing configuration to go to that mode......if it had two angular contacts at the bottom and a sealed radial at the top of the quill, then Loctite it is.

    I suppose a couple of grub screws in the side of the casting pressing against the quill would also work too as a quick fix.
    Ian.




  7. #27
    Member handlewanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    6463
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    Hi.......what you are referring to is like making a go cart into a family car........due to the lack of suitable donor machines that just fall into place a compromise situation occurs and in the end more work than play is the game.

    There is only one real way and that is to sell the family jewels and invest in a dedicated mill that is designed to do the job from the outset.

    Investment capital is the name of the game, but as it's a cash creating exercise that is going to happen, a ROI has to be the game plan rather than indulging in a cost cutting and time consuming never to be the real thing retrofit.

    What I'm saying in actual fact is until someone in the USA sets out to make a real live home grown mill without all the bells and whistles......just a basic CNC mill at low cost like the Chinese counterparts, nothing will happen this century.

    In reality, if you wanted a CNC mill at low cost the only way is to buy a manual mill and remove almost 50% of the working parts, which is an immediate loss of none recoverable money, and then invest in a whole swag of new parts to get slightly near the starting line for CNC working.

    With that picture in mind, I think a basic mill along the lines of the RF45 in design and size could be made from welded plate material that would be the only outlay before fitting the actual parts that make it a CNC machine.

    In other words, not a working manual mill with throw away excess parts at all, but a start up basic machine shell for an ongoing DIY build........linear rails and ball screws with an ISO 30 spindle to complete the build.......the basic shell is all you really want to do that exercise.
    Ian.



  8. #28
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Croatia
    Posts
    35
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    Ian, your last sentence has actually hit the target. It is all just an exercise. That's its true purpose. I would also compare it to a game of hunt where the game brings the satisfaction as much as the catch does.

    A good friend of mine told me to but Haas mini mill and just make chips straight away. It was a good advice and I remember his words every time I fail in one of the countless steps of progress. But I am happy when I go to my shop and work on the machine. Buying a new vmc would never include all the know how that I really need in order to appreciate the new machine, learn how to use it and make parts with it.
    To make things even worse, as soon as I'm done with the cnc mill conversion I will start my lathe conversion. As said before, it's the game, not the catch. Even tho that the catch brings new levels of rewards.


    Buying a brand new machine would have been a wiser move.
    Buying something like this would have given better results: https://www.alibaba.com/product-deta....13faf1452aBlU
    Buying a machine like this one for retrofit would have been a better idea: https://www.machineseeker.com/Machin...-VMC/i-3477823

    I want to say that this is not the best spent money and time, but it is spent on a machine that when broken in bits one man can handle all the parts. When you don't have access road and when you need to carry your stuff upstarts to bring it home it makes a big difference.
    I'm going to have lots of fun with this machine before I decide to buy something decent. That's all I know



  9. #29
    Member handlewanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    6463
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    So very true.......one man's meat is another mans poison.....but it does pay to dream.........a dream is reality waiting for a place to happen......ask me how I know.
    Ian.



  10. #30
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Croatia
    Posts
    35
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    You are totally right.
    A dream is reality waiting for a place to happen! - that's going to be my new motivation line! Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    So very true.......one man's meat is another mans poison.....but it does pay to dream.........a dream is reality waiting for a place to happen......ask me how I know.
    Ian.




  11. #31
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Croatia
    Posts
    35
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    here are the latest progress pics.







    I've made a little test cut. 10mm 3 and a half flute carbide end mill, 2906RPM, 0.0245 feed per tooth, 473,5mm/min feed rate, step over 2mm. This is one very conservative approach for a facing cut I hoped that I could get away with. But, it is too late and kids are asleep now.

    The mill does fine. This same cutter would perform very high pitch chatter on the original mill at it's top speed at about 1600RPM. That's also the cause of 3 and a half flute cutter.
    Tomorrow I'll finish this cut and see how it performs at 15mm depth of cut & 1mm step over.

    Hope you like what you see, and feel free to comment.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails RF45 Quill radial play-img_0500-jpg   RF45 Quill radial play-img_0496-jpg   RF45 Quill radial play-img_0495-jpg  


  12. #32
    Member handlewanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    6463
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    Hi, as they say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating........I would be happy with a CNC mode if it cut all day with many cuts at 2mm depth of cut and a 3/4 step over at whatever feed rate it could handle........nobody stands and watches a 2-3 hour cutting program unless you're fascinated by flying chips.....LOL......that's how it was in the good old manual mill days.

    I think the progress of a CNC mill is to let it cut at it's best and don't expect it to hog metal like a manual mill.........many lighter cuts....... 'ços that's what CNC mills can do best...... will get you to the end result without shaking the guts out of the machine......hit the green button and let the machine do the work.....you're only a bystander.......my opinion entirely.
    Ian.



  13. #33
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1523
    Downloads
    2
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    Ian, high depths of cut with smaller step overs (eg 10mm deep cut, 1mm width of cut) rather than shallow wide cuts (e.g 1mm deep cut, 10mm wide) can be better for tool life.

    It certainly is an advantage of CNC - do something while the machine cuts!



  14. #34
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Croatia
    Posts
    35
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    Hi, as they say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating........I would be happy with a CNC mode if it cut all day with many cuts at 2mm depth of cut and a 3/4 step over at whatever feed rate it could handle........nobody stands and watches a 2-3 hour cutting program unless you're fascinated by flying chips.....LOL......that's how it was in the good old manual mill days.

    I think the progress of a CNC mill is to let it cut at it's best and don't expect it to hog metal like a manual mill.........many lighter cuts....... 'ços that's what CNC mills can do best...... will get you to the end result without shaking the guts out of the machine......hit the green button and let the machine do the work.....you're only a bystander.......my opinion entirely.
    Ian.
    Ian, I have to say that I like this pudding! It was quite a nerve racking first cut... The end result is that my 10mm 3,5 Flute cutter has 0 flutes now
    Yes, I've messed up the code and I ended up pushing the endmill a bit to fast and a bit too deep. It was actually a finishing pass, but I never noticed that previous pass didn't clean all the material. Totally my mistake for not checking the code.
    Good news is that the tool snaps off really nice. Nothing flew out as the enclosure walls are installed.

    The rest of the day was spent for fabrication of flood coolant system. Still unfinished, but a time well spent!

    Quote Originally Posted by pippin88 View Post
    Ian, high depths of cut with smaller step overs (eg 10mm deep cut, 1mm width of cut) rather than shallow wide cuts (e.g 1mm deep cut, 10mm wide) can be better for tool life.

    It certainly is an advantage of CNC - do something while the machine cuts!
    Yeah, that is totally right. It is nice to see long chips being taken off the stock material. I really like this kind of machining as the chip seems to be easier to clean.



  15. #35
    Member handlewanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    6463
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    Well despite what they say, I find that it goes easier on the cutter if you cut broad and shallow rather than deep and with a small step over........cutting with a deep cut and a small step over puts a lot of deflection strains on the cutter and the spindle itself.......this is only my opinion and how I work.

    It probably works better if you go deep and narrow with aluminium..........I work mainly with steel.

    It should be noted that when you go deep you wear the cutter a lot more on the cutting edge and this can only be cured by a total regrind of the entire cutter length.........cutting with a shallow cut only wears the first 2mm or so of the cutter and this can then be cut back completely without regrinding the entire length of the flute.

    There are simple cutter grinders that will only grind the end of the cutter, so anyone "could" regrind a cutter quite easily.........you can also hand re-grind the end quite easily this way.

    BTW, it also pays to hone a small radius on the sharp corner of the end of the cutter to prevent chipping.
    Ian.



  16. #36
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Croatia
    Posts
    35
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: RF45 Quill radial play

    I totally understand your point of view, and I admire your skills. Actually I have purchased mill and lathe just because I find machining so fascinating.

    This is what I'm using:
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/302201161081
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/291990559412

    I get my deflection information (colour ) from G-Wizard and if my intended cut is having red deflection numbers I work on getting that down. Sorry if I have disappointed you, but that's way I find it most convenient.

    I've seen that some folks grind that radius on HSS tooling. Definitely worth giving a try, thanks for advice!

    Last edited by ZeljkoM; 11-24-2017 at 08:35 AM.


Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  


About CNCzone.com

    We are the largest and most active discussion forum for manufacturing industry. The site is 100% free to join and use, so join today!

Follow us on


Our Brands

RF45 Quill radial play

RF45 Quill radial play