Plasma Quench Alternatives

[rock4xfab]

Is anyone or has anyone used somthing other then plasma quench or the DIY PQ in there water table.. Say RV antifreeze, non flamable corrosive protection and EPA legal.. I mean if you can put it in you water heater... I was out the other day and purchaced a gallon... I cam back and through a bunch of metal dust and shavings in it along with some tap water ( our shop well) which is highly mineralized. This allin a small glass.. so far I still have clean bare metal.. GOOD Bad Indiferent what are your thoughts and who is using what..

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[Tensaiteki]

RV antifreeze isn't exactly non-flammable. At high enough temperatures it will burn, and vapors/mists can be ignited, even when mixed with water. Regular automotive antifreeze (ethylene glycol) is slightly more flammable than RV antifreeze (propylene glycol). Read the MSDS.

Unlike automotive antifreeze, RV antifreeze, doesn't contain as many corrosion inhibitors. Also, both oxidize when exposed to heat and air (plenty of both in this application) and become corrosive.

From Wikipedia:
"...biological fouling also occurs. Once bacterial slime starts, the corrosion rate of the system increases. Maintenance of systems using glycol solution includes regular monitoring of freeze protection, pH, specific gravity, inhibitor level, color and biological contamination."

I would not even try to use any type of glycol based antifreeze in a water table.

[Dustin407]

There is a really good post maybe 3-4 pages over that shows do and donts with water tables... It is very helpful.... All your inquries and questions should be answered...

[Zygoat]

There is a really good post maybe 3-4 pages over that shows do and donts with water tables... It is very helpful.... All your inquries and questions should be answered...

Link?

[tulsaturbo]

Many have used "Washing Soda" (laundry type) to treat the water in their tanks to stop the rust process from taking over the slats.

To give your water the recommended treatment you'll need to know how many gallons of water your tank holds.

As an estimated guess, the baking soda formula for water treatment is roughly:

1 cup (8oz) of baking soda per 20 gallons of water

[rock4xfab]

RV antifreeze isn't exactly non-flammable. At high enough temperatures it will burn, and vapors/mists can be ignited, even when mixed with water. Regular automotive antifreeze (ethylene glycol) is slightly more flammable than RV antifreeze (propylene glycol). Read the MSDS.

Unlike automotive antifreeze, RV antifreeze, doesn't contain as many corrosion inhibitors. Also, both oxidize when exposed to heat and air (plenty of both in this application) and become corrosive.

From Wikipedia:
"...biological fouling also occurs. Once bacterial slime starts, the corrosion rate of the system increases. Maintenance of systems using glycol solution includes regular monitoring of freeze protection, pH, specific gravity, inhibitor level, color and biological contamination."

I would not even try to use any type of glycol based antifreeze in a water table.

I was never intending automotive antifreeze. Just looking into another option, as for the RV stuff I picked up I have let it stand for 3 days with metal in it.. And the metal started rusting last night. As for it igniting, I hit that with a torch 1st day and it did not ignite, although I did not find anything in the MSDS that said what the fumes would/could be and that did give me a concern to ask. My tank is 41 Gallons LxWxH /231. I will have to look into the arm and hammer.. Any foaming issues that you know off?? OBveuosly I dont want a large washing machine in the shop LOL.. Keep the sugestions coming..

[PlasmaGuy]

rock4xfab,

I have used the Plasmaquench brand for years and it lasts forever IMO.

The company is out of business as you are most likely aware of... this doesn't help you.

Do a search for Plain Old Bill's recipe for Plasmaquench. There have been plenty of people that have made this concoction and it works.

There was some chatter about the ingredients, etc. i.e. environmentally friendly.... in Bills recipe but his formulation is close to the original stuff.

Anyway, good luck on your your build!

Tom

[keebler303]

I don't know which one is actually what you want but washing soda and baking soda are two different things.

Washing soda -sodium carbonate
Baking soda -sodium bicarbonate

You can make washing soda from baking soda by heating it. I did it before but I don't remember the exact temperature to use. I think its around 400F. It gives off CO2 gas so you want to spread it thin so it doesn't "volcano" in your oven. You should be able to google it. I resorted to this after not being able to easily find washing soda locally.

Matt

[rock4xfab]

rock4xfab,

I have used the Plasmaquench brand for years and it lasts forever IMO.

The company is out of business as you are most likely aware of... this doesn't help you.

Do a search for Plain Old Bill's recipe for Plasmaquench. There have been plenty of people that have made this concoction and it works.

There was some chatter about the ingredients, etc. i.e. environmentally friendly.... in Bills recipe but his formulation is close to the original stuff.

Anyway, good luck on your your build!

Tom

I have the reciepe for the DIY.. THe original company is out of business. They were near my location when they were open. There is another company selling a plasma quench, I talked to them a week ago. But dam that stuff is expensive in my O2.. Thats why I started the thread to see if others found a different way other then home made or bought.

[tulsaturbo]

I will have to look into the arm and hammer.. Any foaming issues that you know off?? OBveuosly I dont want a large washing machine in the shop LOL..

(Arm & Hammer Washing Soda -sodium carbonate) No foaming whatsoever. Water always remains clear.

Do a little research on it before making fun of it and you will find that it is a cheap, simple and viable alternative to plasma quench and other elaborate recipes found on the web.

[tulsaturbo]

I don't know which one is actually what you want but washing soda and baking soda are two different things.

Washing soda -sodium carbonate
Baking soda -sodium bicarbonate

You can make washing soda from baking soda by heating it. I did it before but I don't remember the exact temperature to use. I think its around 400F. It gives off CO2 gas so you want to spread it thin so it doesn't "volcano" in your oven. You should be able to google it. I resorted to this after not being able to easily find washing soda locally.

Matt

Matt,

You can get it here online if you don't have a local Ace Hardware store in your area...

Arm & Hammer® Super Washing Soda (03020) - Specialty Laundry Cleaners - Ace Hardware

[rock4xfab]

(Arm & Hammer Washing Soda -sodium carbonate) No foaming whatsoever. Water always remains clear.

Do a little research on it before making fun of it and you will find that it is a cheap, simple and viable alternative to plasma quench and other elaborate recipes found on the web.

Sweet Thank you.. I will start a little more reading....

[keebler303]

Matt,

You can get it here online if you don't have a local Ace Hardware store in your area...

Arm & Hammer® Super Washing Soda (03020) - Specialty Laundry Cleaners - Ace Hardware

I have Ace around my place. Never thought to look there. I still have some baking soda I cooked into washing soda but I'll remember that when I need more. Thanks.

Matt

[rock4xfab]

Its funny My wife has it under the kitchen sink and the laundry room cabinet.. It helps keep the moisture down in areas so mold/mildew are controlled.

[Dustin407]

I am currently using Greencut in my waterbed right now... It works great it was very expensive, but the reason I went with greencut it is very safe. When using certain chemicals in waterbeds there is a certain phenomenon that takes place with plasma cutting methods. This turns into a carcinogenic gas that will be emitted into the air usually be steam that you see in plasma cutting all the time. I felt it was necessary for me to pay the $300 per 5 gal of greencut. I just dont want to get cancer in 5-10 years using some junk to help stop rust. But the baking soda idea sounds great. We use to take rusty hand tools put baking soda with club soda in water then put small dc voltage to it over night (6v) and the rust would dissapear. So I know that it would work, I just dont know how much maintenance it would be....

[rock4xfab]

I am currently using Greencut in my waterbed right now... It works great it was very expensive, but the reason I went with greencut it is very safe. When using certain chemicals in waterbeds there is a certain phenomenon that takes place with plasma cutting methods. This turns into a carcinogenic gas that will be emitted into the air usually be steam that you see in plasma cutting all the time. I felt it was necessary for me to pay the $300 per 5 gal of greencut. I just dont want to get cancer in 5-10 years using some junk to help stop rust. But the baking soda idea sounds great. We use to take rusty hand tools put baking soda with club soda in water then put small dc voltage to it over night (6v) and the rust would dissapear. So I know that it would work, I just dont know how much maintenance it would be....

I understand about the carcinogen's... but I would bet most water tables are still better then the guys using nothing at all... I will keep you guys informed on how my table is doing.. so far almost a week and we are still clean. Although after using it I do see the backing soda leaching out of the water and it sits on top of the grates... as the water drys it leaves a white sandy grit that disolves right back into the water

[HC B]

Is anyone or has anyone used somthing other then plasma quench or the DIY PQ in there water table.. Say RV antifreeze, non flamable corrosive protection and EPA legal.. I mean if you can put it in you water heater... I was out the other day and purchaced a gallon... I cam back and through a bunch of metal dust and shavings in it along with some tap water ( our shop well) which is highly mineralized. This allin a small glass.. so far I still have clean bare metal.. GOOD Bad Indiferent what are your thoughts and who is using what..

I see some people have replied about using Washing Soda. From my research, Washing Soda is Sodium Carbonate (not Sodium Bicarbonate which is Baking Soda). I could not find "Washing Soda" at two local Super Wally Worlds or two local grocery stores but found that Lowe's (and probably HD) sells Sodium Carbonate as pH Plus or pH Up for pool supplies. I tried that in my table and was totally unsatisfied with the results. I added about 2-3 cups worth for 60 gallons of water and had rust forming in the first 24 hours. My water is "softened" so there is some sodium chloride as a component of all my water, just as a disclaimer and to be honest and accurate. I cut a number of pieces (maybe 60 items in varying sizes) and then drained the table and almost the whole thing has flash rust, and some parts were showing rust blooms prior to draining the table.

Maybe I didn't use enough sodium carbonate, I'm not sure, and I'm not saying sodium carbonate will not work but my experience (YMMV) is not to use it. I decided to buy the sodium nitrite and try that. I found a place online selling it for curing salmon eggs for fishing bait. 99% pure, the package claims. We'll see how that goes...when I'm done with this post I'll flood the table with that (and Physan 20) and see what happens.

HTH.

--HC

[I Lean]

I see some people have replied about using Washing Soda. From my research, Washing Soda is Sodium Carbonate (not Sodium Bicarbonate which is Baking Soda). I could not find "Washing Soda" at two local Super Wally Worlds or two local grocery stores but found that Lowe's (and probably HD) sells Sodium Carbonate as pH Plus or pH Up for pool supplies. I tried that in my table and was totally unsatisfied with the results. I added about 2-3 cups worth for 60 gallons of water and had rust forming in the first 24 hours. My water is "softened" so there is some sodium chloride as a component of all my water, just as a disclaimer and to be honest and accurate. I cut a number of pieces (maybe 60 items in varying sizes) and then drained the table and almost the whole thing has flash rust, and some parts were showing rust blooms prior to draining the table.

Maybe I didn't use enough sodium carbonate, I'm not sure, and I'm not saying sodium carbonate will not work but my experience (YMMV) is not to use it. I decided to buy the sodium nitrite and try that. I found a place online selling it for curing salmon eggs for fishing bait. 99% pure, the package claims. We'll see how that goes...when I'm done with this post I'll flood the table with that (and Physan 20) and see what happens.

HTH.

--HC

Keep us posted! I'm interested, since I have some Sodium Nitrite and Physan 20 sitting on the shelf waiting for me to finish my table....

[HC B]

Keep us posted! I'm interested, since I have some Sodium Nitrite and Physan 20 sitting on the shelf waiting for me to finish my table....

Okay, preliminary results are in. Background: I had the water table flooded with H2O and Sodium Carbonate. That rusted like a #$#^. Not flaky stuff, just blistering flash poofy fungus type rust. I drained the table and the rust was a booger. The cutting BB's were rusted, the table was rusted, et cetera. I rinsed/washed the table down twice with a hose and the result was murky brown water.

My table's max capacity for water comes to just over 150 gallons (5x10 plus 2 inches on the X and Y, at 4 inches deep, plus the dips for drains (two of them)). I did the homemade Plasma Quench recipe provided by Plain Ol' Bill of 1/4 pound Sodium Nitrite per 75-80 gallons (so, 1/2 pound, by weight, for my 150 gallons) and 2+ teaspoons of Physan 20 (for that amount of water).

While filling the table I noticed *immediately* that the water was not murky brown. I could see the bottom of the water clearly. I have flooded the table to almost capacity (about 1/8" from flowing over the edges) and I can still see the bottom almost 4 inches down. Totally unlike before when washing the table down sans any chemicals.

I'm not sure what gasses the stuff will put off when heated...but the stuff seems to be working to keep the rust at bay. I will go to wearing my 3M respirator when the thing is in operation, just in case...but the table I flooded partially when rinsing which turned the water completely opaque is now *clear*. I've heard from BigJohnT that when he did this on his table the rust disappeared completely from his table in a day or two, *if I recall correctly* what he wrote to me.

We'll see in a day or so.

Now...if I can find a color dye to keep the #$%#%# cats from drinking the water!

--HC

[BBchevy396_]

I did the homemade Plasma Quench recipe provided by Plain Ol' Bill (now deceased, I think)

--HC

I hope not! I just spoke with him on the phone about 1 week ago. Do you know something I dont?