Pic programming? velleman k8048

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    Default Pic programming? velleman k8048

    this site is what I’ve been looking for, really good stuff !!
    Stumbled across http://www.terry-is.f2s.com/ and while reading about his mill I caught the bug. Reading about the picstep http://www.fromorbit.com/ controllers decided I wanted to start to play with pic’s. I am imprested that some one has spent so much time developing it and when I have built mine I will be contributing to “buy Alan a lathe fund!”

    I brought the k8048 from http://www.velleman.be/ I’ve e-mailed this to velleman


    I am having problems with the k8048 PIC programmer. I have closely cheeked my soldering and don’t think it is the problem. When I bought the kit from MAPLIN. I was advised to which lead to use, it was the wrong one (Null Modem Cable pin wiring as follows 2-3, 3-2, 4-6, 5-5, 6-4, 7-8, 8-7 ) as I had a strait thro converter which would change the gender of one of the plugs from female to male I tried it thinking the null modem cable had a straight thro connection, which did not work with the message from the software saying I could not find the k8048. I then got the correct serial lead, and now can detect the k8048. When I try to write to the PIC the reed/write light comes on but the software displays the message that (no device id received) I have brought a new PIC because I thought that the fist one mite have bean damage from using the null modem cable but the same thing happens. Has using the null modem cable damaged the serial port on the computer or some of the components on the k8048. I am using a laptop, and know that some laptops have problems interfacing with the parallel port because they do not produce enough power through the port, but have not found any mention of this happening with the serial port.


    But thought that I would post it hear as well, in case any one could help.
    Any help greatly appreciated

    Thanks
    jm

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    Default Just received a reply

    This doesn’t really answer any of my questions, but at least they replied. if any one could tell me how to test the serial port is working correctly or what the problem is, I will be very grateful
    Dear sir,

    Thank you for your interest and using our kits.

    Yes, the cable must be full connected and connected "pin-to-pin" because
    the kit use the "handshaking" signal lines and not the normal RS232
    lines: RxD-TxD.

    Please check the following things, these are the most common problems.

    - The voltage, supplied to the K8048 must be at least 15V (=12V
    unregulated adapter)

    - Serial port is not 100% IBM compatible (new PC's may have different
    voltage level)

    - Cable is not correct

    - Kit has an assembly error ?


    Best regards,

    Pascal De Petter,
    Velleman KIT R&D.




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    if you didn't spend to much $$ on it , you cal always check out k149

    http://www.kitsrus.com/upuc.html#k149
    i think i payed $24. us for one, works good ( serial, usb and icsp )
    Here is a list of the PICs the software & firmware of diypack25 supports for Kits 149 and 150. Kits 128 & 182 are Flash programmers and support only those PICs with an 'F' in the partnumber:

    12C508 16C65A 16C77 16F76 16F877
    12C508A 16C65B 16C710 16F77 16F877A
    12C509 16C66 16C711 16F737 18F242
    12C509A 16C66A 16C712 16F747 18F248
    12C671 16C67 16C716 16F767 18F252
    12C672 16C620 16C745 16F777 18F258
    12CE673 16C620A 16C765 16F83 18F442
    12CE674 16C621 16C773 16F84 18F448
    12F629 16C621A 16C774 16F84A 18F452
    12F675 16C622 16C83 16F87 18F458
    16C505 16C622A 16C84 16F88 18F1220
    16C554 16C71 16F627 16F818 18F1320
    16C558 16C71A 16F627A 16F819 18F2220
    16C61 16C72 16F628 16F870 18F2320
    16C62 16C72A 16F628A 16F871 18F4220
    16C62A 16C73 16F630 16F872 18F4320
    16C62B 16C73A 16F648A 16F873
    16C63 16C73B 16F676 16F873A Added diypack23:
    16C63A 16C74 16F684 16F874 16F5x
    16C64 16C74A 16F688 16F874A 10Fxxx 18F6525 6621 8525 8621 (all beta)
    16C64A 16C74B 16F73 16F876
    16C65 16C76 16F74 16F876A Added diypack25 12F683

    Last edited by smarbaga; 07-09-2005 at 11:19 PM.


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    Thanks smarbaga for the reply. your programmer looks better than the one I’ve got, with the USB a serial ports, but I want to get this one working.

    Does any body know which pins to test for the voltage of the serial port. And the qbasic number for the port e.g. for the parallel port ( OUT,888 1 ) will give you the high voltage over pins 2, 25
    thanks j m



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    Serial port pinout shown below. Measure voltage of any pin against signal ground. For more explanation, goto http://www.acumeninstruments.com/Sup...cs/index.shtml

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Pic programming? velleman k8048-serial-jpg  
    Stupid questions make me smarter...
    See how smart I've become at www.9w2bsr.com ;-P


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    to input and output data to/from a serial port you may want to use a terminal program like hyper terminal in the windows communications dropdown menu.
    many fancier ones can be downloaded for free.



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    Most serial port problems arise because of non-compliance voltage levels (-12V,+12V vs 0V, +5V). Just measure the pins against ground, if its somewhere around +12V or -12V, then you should be okay... i.e., problem is somewhere else

    Stupid questions make me smarter...
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    hi abasir
    I’ve tried to do this before but think that I need to get a high reading between pins 2, 9 but don’t know how to get it into a high state.

    with a volt meter, the - lead on signal ground (5)
    This is what I got

    Pin,
    1 0.01v
    2 0.00v
    3 0.66v
    4 0.26v
    6 0.04v
    7 0.66v
    8 0.01v
    9 0.02v

    And I know this is not right, as I didn’t even get 1volt. And I can not compare it to my main desktop computer as it doesn’t have a serial port just usb. Perhaps the port is completely blown?
    I’m on the look out for an old computer instead of using a laptop any way, this will just speed the search up.
    Any help greatly appreciated
    jm



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    I suspect your serial port having problem. I just measured the voltage on my USB->RS232 adaptor; getting about -8V on pin 3,4,7 againts pin 5. The rest is around 0V.

    Stupid questions make me smarter...
    See how smart I've become at www.9w2bsr.com ;-P


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    I have experienced exactly the same problem than you jm.

    The first thing I did was to change the PIC : I've replaced the original 16F627 by a 16F84A one.

    The problem remained. Exactly : "no device ID received" whit the 16F627 and
    "write error..." with the 16F84A.

    I've then reinstalled the soft PROGPIC2.EXE, without success.

    I've also replaced the non-regulated 12 Vdc supply, no more success.

    I've then measured, with a Tektronix TDS 210 scope, the non-regulated voltage produced by both supplies : it appeared to be near well regulated (!) at +/- 17V3...I thought the problem was not there.

    Please note that my PC offers two serial ports, my scope was connected on COM1, and the VM111/K8048 on COM2.

    I've swapped the VM111 with the scope : it now works well with the 16F627 but the problem persists with with the 16F84A...but maybe that the 16F84A is out of order?

    Of course my scope still works well on COM2.

    Don't ask me why the fact of use COM1 instead of COM2 SEEMS to solve the problem (of course I knew that the COM's can be selected with PROGPIC2...)

    I think that peoples, like you and me, experiencing this kind of problem, have not to look on the hardware side (bad programmer, bad PIC, bad cable,...) but on the software side.

    I think the first thing to do is to uninstall ALL the devices addressing a serial
    port (except the VM111), even if you think that they do not address the COM# where your pic programmer is connected, connect the pic programmer on COM1, and then retry...but I'm absolutely not an expert.

    Hope this will help.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Pic programming? velleman k8048-vm111-unregulated-12vdc-supply-jpg  


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    Hi Patrick thanks for posting what you have done, it may help other people and I’m glad that you have got yours working.
    I think I know what my problem is, as like you I have ruled out the power supply. I have also tried other PIC’s and I have reinstalled the software and tried another software program. I have the correct port selected in the bios. So that leaves the serial port, and from what I understand there are different standards for the serial port. As I am using a laptop I think this is some of the problem.
    When I measured the voltage of the serial port it was very low but the K8048 is detected by the software and when I try to program a PIC the read/write LED lights up.
    So I am still on the look out for a new computer (but I haven’t done much looking, but you have reminded me to start), as my main desktop doesn’t have a serial port, or I may get a USB adapter.

    If you want to use the other serial port I think you may need to change your bios settings.

    The link for the web site for the other software I found which is compatible with the vellemen K8048
    http://www.qsl.net/dl4yhf/winpic/

    Out of interest how useful do you find your scope as I don’t have one, and am not really sure what you use it for?

    So when I get my programmer working after making the stepper driver’s for my CNC the next projects will be:
    I found this web site were some one has made a clock out of a cathode ray tube from a scope and using PIC’s to control it. This has to be one of the coolest clocks in the world
    http://www.webx.dk/oz2cpu/clock-scope/scope.htm

    Tetris on a pic
    http://www.rickard.gunee.com/projects/

    james



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    Hi James, bad news (for me). To swap COM2 with COM1 has not solved anything. The problem reappeared the day after.
    So please forget all that I've written...Is an oscilloscope useful? Yes of course. It allows you not to only measure a voltage, but, mainly, it allows you to SEE THE SHAPE of your signal. I think that the reading of a DB9 pin voltage with a multimeter, even a very good one, is very hard (if not impossible) to interpret. The multimeter will read, e.g., "9.05 VRMS" if the byte is "00110011" then maybe "9,65 VRMS" if the byte change to "11110011" and so on...very quikly...but what will it really read finally ? With a scope, I think you'll see the byte itself. At last, it's not "my" scope, but one I've just borrowed at my job...thank for your superb links.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Pic programming? velleman k8048-vm111-db9-pin3-transmitted-data-jpg  


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    Hi Patrick, It seams weird that it was working and then stops. At least I am not the only one having problems, hope you get it sorted, any ideas what’s wrong, keep me posted.

    I had an idea of what oscilloscope could measure although I have never used one, I just wounded how useful one would be to some one who just tinkers in electronics. Looks like, very useful, I have often seen them referred to in articles. I will start to look for one, are there any specific features I should look out for?
    I was using just a cheep’o digital multimeter to measure the serial port voltage, do you think that they are accurate readings? Or even in the right area.
    What are you planning to use your programmer for?

    Just in case any body was reading this looking for a PIC programmer I have read on other forums that people have had no problems at all, and I am sure I will get it working. One of the reasons I got the velleman K8048 is the fact you can run test programs on the board using the switches and LED‘s, I think that’s a nice feature.
    Thanks james



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    Next to a good meter and a CMOS/TTL logic probe, an O-scope opens up a new world to see the signal. Not only in shape, but duration and timing relationships to other signals. Noise is another nuisance that can cause unseen problems.

    At minimum, get a 2 channel with around a 100Mhz basic model. Depends on your area of need. Bells and whisles would be nice, but as with any piece of hardware like this. Get the most you can for the least cost. You can always upgrade and pass the old one off to another motivated techy rising star. Ebay might not be the best place, but there are some great deals listed if you know what you are looking for.

    I have had my HP1707 for about 15years. I paid about $245 for it back then at a Boeing auction. It has paid for itself 10 times over at least. What I see available these days are a lot better for the same amount of money. One of these days I might make the jump on a newer unit, when this HP won't fit my application, or the magic smoke comes out of it. I have seen them selling for about $30-60 now! Heheh!

    DC



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    Hi DC, This shows my basic playing with electronics I don’t have a logic probe, I had bean looking to get one but was waiting until I got my PIC programmer working, I thought that would have bean a wile ago. Looking at the UK’s equitant of radio shack [maplin, they do not always have the best stuff or the cheapest but I can walk into the shop and buy it instead of having to pay and wait for it to be delivered] they have this one would that be adequate, having look at some other ones which have a built-in pulser? Is this worth having?
    I have looked a oscilloscopes on eBay before but wasn’t sure what to look for thanks for at least giving me some idea of what to look for. I had also thought about a computer oscilloscope. When you say 100Mhz is that sine waves or square waves as this one from parallaxhttp://www.optascope.com/ is (View sine waves up to 60 kHz View square waves up to 100 kHz)
    Would this oscilloscope be any good?

    Thanks james



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    Quote Originally Posted by j m
    Hi DC, This shows my basic playing with electronics I don’t have a logic probe, I had bean looking to get one but was waiting until I got my PIC programmer working, I thought that would have bean a wile ago. Looking at the UK’s equitant of radio shack [maplin, they do not always have the best stuff or the cheapest but I can walk into the shop and buy it instead of having to pay and wait for it to be delivered] they have this one would that be adequate, having look at some other ones which have a built-in pulser? Is this worth having?
    That one looks usable. I would rather have the pulser as a seperate unit so that I can have my logic probe down stream to see the signal propagate through with the intended result.


    Quote Originally Posted by j m
    I have looked a oscilloscopes on eBay before but wasn’t sure what to look for thanks for at least giving me some idea of what to look for. I had also thought about a computer oscilloscope. When you say 100Mhz is that sine waves or square waves as this one from parallaxhttp://www.optascope.com/ is (View sine waves up to 60 kHz View square waves up to 100 kHz)
    Would this oscilloscope be any good?

    Thanks james
    O-scopes can by like underwear. A lot of the specs are subjective to how the unit is used and how it is made to fit. I see 100Mhz scope as having the capability to comfortably view a 100Mhz signal. Some might consider it as response time on one spike etc. Others might consider it a max bandwidth of the circuitry.

    I'd concern myself more with things like Digital storage, Graticule size, Minimum sweep time. Min and max voltage inputs...ah, the list goes on........pro's that use them would have a better sense in features for level of importance.

    I did buy one of those PC scopes for work. Not a good scope IMHO. As you have noticed, the fastest signals it can track are around 100Khz? Compare that to 100Mhz. They do not compare, but are OK for maybe audio and low freq projects. Nothing worse than knowing signals are there, but not having the equipment to prove they have any integrity. These PC scopes will work fine for some things(like first year student training). They just are not as reliable for most things(like anything after second year student training).

    DC



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    Thanks that’s really great, saved me from making a mistake. I think I am going to do some reading about oscilloscopes, and some saving looking at the price’s!
    pulser as a seperate unit
    Is that a Function generator? signal generator? Or am I talking about the same thing?

    I have started a new post for, out of curiosity what would be The ultimate list of tools for electronics new post



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    Hi james, not so weird in fact. I now believe that the voltage levels of the
    pic programmer are not fully compatible with the voltage levels of a PC COM port.
    In my mind, considering a RS-232 link, a 'high state' bit (bit = "1") must correspond at + 12V, and a 'low state' one (bit = "0") should correspond at -12V.
    So the peak to peak voltage should be +12 - (-12) = 24 V(peak to peak)
    If you look at the scope screen that I've mailed last time, you will notice that the peak to peak voltage is not at 24V but at 20.2V...maybe it could explain that sometimes it works and sometimes not, 20.2Vp-p being close of 24Vp-p.
    Of course D.C. is right, a scope can tell you many more than the shape of a signal, and
    he well advises you on how to look for a good one (but don't buy a too expensive 'high-range' O-scope, a 250 $ second hand one should effectively be sufficient.) But DO NOT buy a computer oscilloscope.
    Using a digital multimeter to read a serial port voltage isn't accurate, and doesn't even lead you in a right area...but I may be wrong. Why do I think that ? Of course you know what a byte is : e.g. byte = “00011101" with "0"=-12V and "1"=+12V
    If your DMM is a very good one, it will read the TRMS voltage (True Root Mean Square) of the byte, but, the byte changing constantly, it has no great sense. Like D.C. says, you'd better use a good logic probe (20 to 40$ I think.) And if your meter is not a TRMS one, I'm afraid you can completely forget what you've measured. Look
    still at my scope screen: the TRMS voltage is 9.94V but it does even not interest me : the matter is, in this case, the peak to peak voltage : never any multimeter will read 20.2Vp-p
    You've already understood that 9.94V(RMS) = 20.2V(p-p)...AT THIS MOMENT FOR THIS BYTE! Change the byte and the effective (=TRMS) voltage will vary, but not the peak to peak one.
    At last, I've bought the PIC programmer because I'didn't even knew what a PIC was and wanted to know.
    Before my problem, I was just writing a silly program driving a solenoid valve and a motor:
    1) one push on the 'start' button then the valve open
    2) 2" later the motor run during 5" and then stop
    3) the valve stay opened 3" and then close.
    You're right when you say that the switches and leds of the K8048 are a nice feature, but I'm now tired to try to make the stuff work, I'm going to return the kit to the Velleman technical departement. I'll keep you informed.



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    Hi James, I've forgotten this, if you want to know what an O-scope is really, what it can do, how to use it,...you MUST go at http://www.tektronix.com/ and look for the pdf file 'XYZs of oscilloscopes'...normally it's exactly here :
    http://www.tek.com/Measurement/cgi-b...=oscilloscopes

    I know nothing better to teach somebody. Hope it will help.



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    A logic probe will not do well working with any signals outside of TTL or CMOS. Which are 0-5vdc or 0-12vdc respectively. In no way would a logic probe be useful to check +/-12V for any reason. There are other devices that can inspect, capture and decode com port signals.

    I have used a program called Windmill. Don't know if that would help much for pinging outputs on individually. There are loop back test circuits that might verify a port. Finding the program or having the knowledge to tweak it to that level is a challenge. I doubt it would matter if it is a USB port per say. These are still serial ports standardized protocol as I understand them. Don't know why there would not be something similar for USB. At least on a PC troubleshooting disk?

    Other than that, I hear there are counselors that can resolve the toughest communication connection problems.

    DC



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