600 Volts 20 Amps 3 Phase Needed

[will_eng]

I have a CNC Lathe requiring 600 Volts 20 Amps 3 Phase. I only have 240 Volts Single Phase in my shop. I know Phase converters are quite popular but can you run am transformer to step up voltage? It seems all i have seen is 240 to 240 or 240 to 480 but never 600 volts.

Reguards. W.G.

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[Al_The_Man]

If you get a phase converter that will run a transformer it does not matter what the secondary voltage is, you can get 240 to 600v but the 600 to 240 are more common so you may have to run it 'backwards'.
if you do, most manufacturers advise that the output voltage will be less than nameplate due to the compensation factor of the windings.
But if it is a 600v and you get 575v output, this is often the voltage of the service in Canada.
If a rotary type of converter, you do not however get the added advantge of obtaining the false leg assistance from other three phase motors being fed by the converter itself.
Al.

[will_eng]

Thank you. This Fourm has been very helpfull. Has anyone here done this before? And I understand how this would work but would an electritian be comfortable with doing something like this(wiring up a phase converter and running a step down transformer backwards) or are these things common enough? Also is there a supplyer or a good secondhand source for Phase converters and transformers?
Reguards W.G.

[Al_The_Man]

I have used 600 to 240 single phase reverse connected for 600v to power a tap disintegrator and worked fine. The rotary type converters are fairly cheap and easy to build, there are some previous posts here where I have links to building one.
Surplus 240v 3ph 4 pole motors are usually easy to obtain.
Al.

[murphy625]

Not sure if this is any help but yes it can be done very easy..

I run a 15 hp rotary phase converter that outputs 240 3phase.. I run this into a 3phase transformer that boosts the voltage to 480.
Are you sure you need 600 volts??? I've never seen this..
What I have seen is 480 volt systems that use equipment rated at 600 volts. (most 480volt equipment is rated for 600volt service) its just a saftey thing and is done because canada operates at 575 volts @50hz.

Are you sure you require 600 volts??

[Al_The_Man]

its just a saftey thing and is done because canada operates at 575 volts @50hz.
Are you sure you require 600 volts??

Canada Is 60hz BTW same as US.
Practically all transformers I have installed here are designed to operate at 600v wether Y or Delta. And will deliver 600v three phase on a 600v secondary.
Most do however have taps to allow for adjustments at least 25v up or down.
Al.

[murphy625]

Al!! Your in Canada!! I did not know that..

I went to a little town just umm(North) I think of Toronto to supervise the de-construction of a very large process system. (Large as in 40 semi trucks to move it)

The whole thing had 575 volt motors marked at 50hz.. We ran them for a good 6 months on 480 volts 60hz (here is the USA)and they rotated faster than the marked RPM's.
The system was a solid 15 years old.. (umm. that would make it about 23 years old now)
Has Canada changed?? Or am I missing something?

Thanks,

[Al_The_Man]

The whole thing had 575 volt motors marked at 50hz..
Has Canada changed?? Or am I missing something?

I don't know where those motors were meant for, AFAIK Canada has always been 60hz, I am not sure why the reason for going 600 though. I believe Australia is 50Hz but cannot remember whether they went with 440 same as UK.
Al.

[will_eng]

I talked with a guy at an Industrial electical place that has done phase converter stuff before. And he told me I needed a special phase converter and it would probably cost me $10,000.00 all wired up and done. Is this true? He mensioned something about me having like variable drives and that was why. But if me spindel motor is just a regular 3 phase motor with a transmition and i have a hydrolic unit and a few little pumps on 3 phase and wouldnt my whole control be DC (my servos are DC)? Or coudl i just get a regular phase converter to power the 3 phase motors and then get a rectifier to rectify singel phase 220 to __DC for my control? I dont know alot about electrical things but basicaly i want to know about cnc with phase converters. Reguards W.G.

[Al_The_Man]

I know a few people that are using rotary converters, some home built, for various CNC machines, especially if you have a regular induction motor for spindle, I am using one to run two mills that have VFD's on the spindle and single phase for the control and servo's.
I think that guy was spinning you a $10,000 line!!
Are your servo's 1ph? The only reservation I would say is if they are older 3ph SCR DC drives that fire directly across the line, If they are I would put a three phase line filter before the machine, manufacturers like Hammond make them.
Al.

[will_eng]

Ok I'm ready to start talking numbers and things I need to specifically do. I am in some what of a dilemma since people I talk to are very negative and then the people on here and other pages on the net are confident this can be done. So regardless I am striking out to see what I can learn and hopefully accomplish something instead of just talk. I understand a lot of you have small lathes and mills and things like that and I know the concept should still apply to a larger machine. I have attached a table with all the specs for my machine. As you can see I have like 15.5HP in motors. On the outside of the machine it says 600V 20 amps, which works out to 12000 watts which equals a little over 16HP. Maybe that has no relevance but regardless I’m looking at about 15-16HP.
It seems a lot of rotary phase converter success stories involve a 1HP lathe or something of that nature. http://home.att.net/~waterfront-wood...econverter.htm This sight tells a bit about calculating capacitors and building a phase converter. Its example is also a 1HP motor and just says to scale up for a bigger motor. But is this a linear scale? Can you just scale up with no problems? I know it said you would have to play around with caps wand what not but even still.

So for my 16HP I need Cap L1-L3 =80uf and Cap L2-L3=200uf?

http://www.phaseconverterinfo.com/ph...verter_cnc.htm

This sight has a lot of interesting stuff on it too.

The widely variable load of CNC machines exposes the primary weakness of rotary phase converters, namely, the inability to main balanced voltage. A rotary phase converter can provide balanced voltage at only one load point and the more variable the load, the worse the voltage balance. If a CNC machine is operated on a rotary phase converter, the converter must be oversized to minimize the voltage imbalance. Oversizing the phase converter to improve voltage balance will result in poor efficiency, often as low as 70%.

Any thoughts or ideas on what to do as far as sizing for my specific machine?

[Al_The_Man]

Is this the 600v m/c? If so what is 600v on the machine, even the aux motors in the list, Hyd, lube coolant etc show as 220v. The spindle drives and servo's are more than likely 220. If so it may be possible to study the prints for the possibillity to run of 220/240, although you would need around a 12 - 15 hp converter but would not need the 600v txfr.
You would also have the advantage of the 3 phase motors assisting the converter process.
The oddball frequency shown on some are strange? they should be all 60hz.
The spindle and the servo's go into electronic drives, which in most cases on Fanuc are 220v 3ph.
Al.

[will_eng]

Yes this is the same machine. The only reason I thought it required 600 volts was because there is a sticker on the outside of the machine near the power input that reads “600 Volts 20 Amps Max 3 Phase”. I copied that power supply cart for the service manual (I think I screwed up those frequencies they all should be 60HZ). I see that all the aux motors are 220 volts but there is nothing for the spindle motor. The servos are DC so that wont matter right? Wouldn’t the whole control system on the m/c be DC? But the transformer/rectifier might require 600 volts input? I would be happy to not have to go to 600 volts. There is a transformer on the back of the machine. I don’t have good schematics. The machine was built in Taiwan so what ever that could mean. So how do you size phase converters with something like this having many motors and features as opposed to like a simple mill with a 1HP motor like on a lot of the phase converter sights? And when you do find the sizing for the capacitors and idler motor, and you achieve the proper voltage required whether it be 220 or higher through a transformer, how is the current taken care of? Current is drawn right? You just make sure your system is built and fused for it right? Like I have a 200 Amp service in my shop. So if my lathe requires 20 Amps it will just draw up to that and I just have to make sure I’m set up for that and that it can’t draw over that.

[Al_The_Man]

Practically all the systems on a fanuc are either 220 3ph or 100-110 vac 1ph.
The fact that the aux motors are 220 would indicate they must transform down from 600 for those motors too. Just because the servo's are DC does not mean they do not require 3ph in, The may be SCR drives which instead of a DC power supply use SCR's across the 3ph line in, usually 220 3ph. The spindle drive is the only thing of concern as often they are also SCR with its own transformer with a star secondary with a neutral common, if this is so, you would need to know the primary voltage required for this transformer.
If the 600v comes in on the machine disconnect, then the disconnect current rating may not be high enough at 240 volts, this is why you need the power schematic of the machine in order to make an informed decision.
Often a 600v 3ph transformer is supplied with the machine in Canada and they transform down to 220 for the machine.
With a motor only type of load, Rotary converters are sized for the max size motor on the load, other motors will add to the convertor function, so in effect a larger motor load can be operated than the size of the convertor motor itself.
With a CNC machine there are fewer direct motor loads due to drives etc. So you have to size close to the total wattage of the machine.
As for tuning, there is some leads if you search the forum, that show links to the Metalworking drop box etc. www.metalworking.com
Voltage and Current drawn (dependant on the load) are a direct ratio of the transformer, if you are using one.
Al.

[altcan]

Hello all I just found this thread. Heres what to do. First check inside the machine to see if its transformer has taps for 480 and 230 as well as the 600. I wouldnt be surprised to find you have a machine that was ordered for 600 volts and just has a step down transformer added to it that you dont need. It likely requires 208-230 volts! 3 phase.
Second forget all this phase coverter crap as that went extinct 20 years ago. For less than 2 grand you can get a 20 hp vfd that you would supply with your single phase and it will give your machine proper 3 phase power at the same voltage. you just set the frequecy at 60 hz. If you have to stay at the 600 volts you just get a single phase step up transformer from 230 up to 600 and then order a 600 volt drive to make the 3 phase. Bin there done that!

[will_eng]

Hello all I just found this thread. Heres what to do. First check inside the machine to see if its transformer has taps for 480 and 230 as well as the 600. I wouldnt be surprised to find you have a machine that was ordered for 600 volts and just has a step down transformer added to it that you dont need. It likely requires 208-230 volts! 3 phase.
Second forget all this phase coverter crap as that went extinct 20 years ago. For less than 2 grand you can get a 20 hp vfd that you would supply with your single phase and it will give your machine proper 3 phase power at the same voltage. you just set the frequecy at 60 hz. If you have to stay at the 600 volts you just get a single phase step up transformer from 230 up to 600 and then order a 600 volt drive to make the 3 phase. Bin there done that!

My m/c does infact have a step down trantsformer that has 575,480 volts primary and 220,200 volts secondary. it is wired at 575 in and 200 out (nothing on the machiene is 600 volt at all). Although I was disopointed to see 200 and not 220. Is that just because of the windings on the transformer that it works out that way? All my motors are rated for 220v in the manual. But if i have to go down to 200 volts how would i do that? Is ther a transformer to go form 220 to 200?
So tell me more about VFD's. How do they work? I thought they wer mostly for just controling like a motor's speed. So i can get 1phase in and 3 phase out? Can i get one large enough for my m/c? How would i size it? By my spindle or my total wattage of the m/c? If i go too big is taht ok? Thanks.

[skippy]

Will Eng, you said that the locals are sceptical about doing the job and one of them said it would cost about $10,000 to do it and you (like me) don't appear to have sufficiently strong electrical skills to be able to confidently carry out a job like this.

If you want my blunt opinion, it appears that your cnc lathe is NOT a $1,000 Rong-Fu conversion (read: toy) so if I were you I'd make contact with someone like Big Al and fly him to your area (= cheap with today's flight pricing). Then once he's onsite, he makes a plan of what needs to be done then he marks all wiring that needs to be cut/joined/modified, tech returns to his base and sources and prepares your transformer, phase convertor, etc. and sends it to you. If you don't feel like paying for a second flight for the tech, you install it yourself using the already marked out schematic.

Sometimes it's better to just pay a competant person and include those costs in with the machine purchase costs. If you have a quick look at Big Al's previous posts you will see that he has worked on machinery that would make your's look like a dwarf but if he's not available there are others on this site who are also capable. Just my two cents worth!

[Al_The_Man]

.... it is wired at 575 in and 200 out (nothing on the machiene is 600 volt at all). Although I was disopointed to see 200 and not 220. Is that just because of the windings on the transformer that it works out that way? All my motors are rated for 220v in the manual. But if i have to go down to 200 volts how would i do that? Is ther a transformer to go form 220 to 200?
So tell me more about VFD's. How do they work? I thought they wer mostly for just controling like a motor's speed. So i can get 1phase in and 3 phase out? Can i get one large enough for my m/c? How would i size it? By my spindle or my total wattage of the m/c? If i go too big is taht ok? Thanks.

As I mentioned before Fanuc and others are rated at max 220 (200 +- 10%). It can be a problem if your single phase supply is 240 as it is pushing the limit, you can feed your regular motors from 220/ 240 but to get down to 200 for the control you can use something called a buck/boost transformer in the buck mode, (a google search will show you how this is done).
The previous post on VFD is to use a Variable Frequency Controller and set it at 60hz. it essentially takes 3ph, or in some cases it will take 1ph and convert to a variable frequency three phase, the only problem is, I have not seen any that are in the size you need that is cheap or will run on 1ph, alot of manufacturers only recommend 1ph in for under 3 to 5hp.
The rotary convertor, in my opinion is still a much cheaper option, Unless you can get a good deal on ebay etc.
Al.

[altcan]

Sorry for the long response time. To make a long story short, you just choose a drive 1.73 times larger for a single phase feed. This is because you are using 4 out of the 6 input rectifiers on the input of the drive. It doesnt mater what the horsepower is there are hundreds of different sizes of drives out there. In your case a 230 volt 30 hp would be just fine. For example a mitsubishi FR-F540-22K-NA is worth $3225.00 Canadian dollars. If you control voltage is really that fussy any transformer with taps will fix you up there. The auto transformer type where you go in on the 230 and out on the 208 tap right beside it are small and cheap.

[steveg]

will, al, a thing to remember is that Fanuc dc drives must be fed with "real" 3 phase.
the dc drives take the 3 phase waveform and directly converts it into the
pwm dc that drives the servos, as opposed to first converting to dc and then using
that dc to feed ac servo motor amps.

as Al points out(slightly incorrectly) fanuc is 220vac 3P 50/60hz input but you are allowed -10/+15%
on that input.

the servo drives themselves require a more specific voltage input (200 if memory serves) but
there is a multitap transformer made by fanuc installed infront of the
servo amps for the purpose.

so my suggestion is to remove any 600-220 transformers inside the machine
and rewire it for a straight 220v input.

then you need to find a "real" 3 phase input source such as (ultimately)
the 3p that your local hydro company would provide, a motor-generator
(2p motor 3p generator) or even a diesel generator.

Also give the fanuc office in toronto a call 1-888-FANUCUS and ask them for
advice (they are ALWAYS helpful) make sure that you have machine model
and serial number at hand, as well as control,spindle and servo amp model