Why Open Source????? A White Paper. FLAME away!

[pstockley]

That's kind of the point I was making earlier. To do anything useful regarding a CAM/CAM package requires a hugely complicated program. From what I remember when I worked in CAD, the basic package was around 2.5 million lines of code. That was before you started adding all the add-ons. The first version of the package took 3 years with more than 15 full time programmers working 60 to 70 hour weeks. And to be honest it kind of sucked, probably needed another 3 years of development to get it to be a slick product.

[Dennis Bohlke]

Why Not Open Source.

I am one of the few that actually can create a machine tool operating system from scratch. I know this because I have had clients using my software to run machines for almost a decade now.

From my research I have concluded there are probably less than ten(10) people that are capable of such a feat.

It is a daunting task to combine machine, motors, electronics, computer interface and software program into a system that will readily perform tasks that are useful and profitable.

I got the idea to do just that in 1989 and pretty much have been in hot pursuit of it since then. I figure I have about 48,000 hours invested in SuperCam and SuperCamXp.

Pigs will fly to the moon before I ever release my sources to the public domain or for that matter contribute to an open source software project. That’s because my machine tool operating system programs are my sole source of income.

I got the idea of combining a graphical AutoCad like user interface directly to the attached machine. Moving the machine carriage around is as easy as pointing and clicking with the mouse to the graphics area of my CAD part of the program. You can draw lines, circles, points and text and cause the machine to follow the centerlines of the graphic items. DXF and HPGL files can be imported and edited by rotating, scale, move, copy, erase. There are commands for swapping ends, changing order and moving to the front of the tool path list. And you can edit the nodes in complex polyline.

My latest efforts have been to create a USB to Parallel port adopter to make create a XP version of my original SuperCam program. I have considered publishing the protocol so that other manufactures can create products compatible with SuperCamXp but then why should a privateer give away his booty?

We live in truly revolutionary times. You may not have notice the significance of what has happened in our lifetimes. We are the first generation of humans that get to play with smart rocks. We are laying down the first sparkly layer in the geological sedimentation of the earth. We are the first generation that has found it is more profitable to make custom rocks than it is to work on the farm.

History is being created. One of the huge advances for mankind has been the use of tools. We now can easily create computerized machine tools for less than the cost of a used car. Personal robotics is what this whole thing is about. It’s just that the robotics is not looking quite like what the science fiction writers would have thought they would look like. A computerized wood router is a real joy to watch especially when it is making something for your personal profit. In someway it is like gathering the crops from the fields. What better way to use a robot than to make money with them, I can get my own beer from the frig.

What we need is a new way to think about machine tools and their movements. The conventional method of creating g and m code files is not the only way that a machine tool can be controlled and used. I do not feel like I am creating CNC machines, I make computerized tools.

Computer software programs are like magician tricks. Once the audience knows the trick they find it foolish to pay the ticket to attend the show. The magician soon finds himself selling soda’s at the concession when his tricks have been found out.

So I think there are compelling reasons why open source projects are domed to failure or snarled tangles of second rate code. But then I maybe wrong, but if I am, we would all be speaking Russian by now. The concept of a collective open source project smacks of Marxism at least to me. If you succeed we will hang.

The demo version of SuperCamXp, my three-axis machine tool operating system is at:
http://www.super-tech.com/root/grp.a...uperCamXp-Demo

It will export 2K of G and M codes to a file. The command on the right sidebar bottom is EXPRTCNC. With it you can pick graphic items and cause G and M codes to be imported into a text box that can be used for editing and saving files. The release version has no limitations on exporting G and M code files.

The motion control part of SuperCamXp only works with my CamPod's. For using SuperCamXp with out a machine there is a Similation mode that can be entered by clicking on the Simulation panel in the top status bar, then the program thinks there is a CamPod attached.

I work for profit. I am a profiteer. And that’s what colors my thinking. If I were an old fuddy-dudy living off retirement I might think differently, there is a spiritual quality to endeavors that can be used by generations to come.

Dennis Bohlke
http://www.super-tech.com

[me_cnc]

In reading the thread, I don't see where anyone asked anybody to give anything away. It was simply a perspective on starting an open source project. People work for a living, creating income based on work is the way the world works. Some people just want to come together and make something sharing their collective talents, i.e. open source. When you said there were only 10 people capable I thought you must have something really special, and then you called your app an operating system, I got a completely different perspective.
You must have been drinking lots of cool-aid while writing your post.

[Dan Falck]

There are people who just want to take code, use it, and not give anything back. But there are also a lot of people who want to contribute and create. I think that a lot of people here like to tinker and create things. It seems that machinists/woodworkers/robotics people need a creative outlet in the software too. Open source software collaboration helps with understanding and learning.
I have been studying python for a while and am starting to understand things a bit. It's nice to be able to read other people's code and start to see what's going on. I have yet to write an application, but can do simple things like create functions for doing bolt circle calculations in python.

Dan

[weimedog]

Bingo. Last two posts hit the nail on the head.

I thought about the "Ten People" comment for a bit. Maybe Maybe not.
I can't get the last thirty years out of my mind when I saw the transition from APT and COMPAC II to the high end systems of the eighties...than watched the machine tool control folks build those first intereactive graphics controls...OKUMA with their OSP5000 series and those first generation Mazak's.....then was exposed to the DARPA funded NGC project. Watched the "operating system" concept appied to ACIS and all those companies that were building code around that environment....and now those CAM systems that evolved from the ninties that fill this bulletin board.....Man you must have been around! There was also a European counterpart to NGC out of Germany with some really smart folks trying to build functions to evaluate more complex geometry than points lines and arcs on controlers..where did they all go? Thats before we consider Fanuc and all those other control builders.

I would say maybe ten people are FOCUSED on the concept of an NC Operating system. Thats possible. But only ten people CAPABLE? Thats a stretch. Lots of very smart folks out there.

[Death Adder]

I don't have the latest in equipment in my shop and much of it still runs (just fine, thanx) on DOS. Yet, it still makes state of the art parts. I have some software the won't run on anything above 98SE. Yes, I can spend big bucks going to an XP compatibly system but it still won't design a cam profile ANY better.

My mill runs under DOS but the control software just uses DOS to boot. It completely takes over after that. And, yes, it works just fine without windows.

It would me nice to have a link so that I can down/upload from my DOS machines to a central server but, in spite of a "yes it will talk to a DOS machine", we still are relegated to transport by floppy because the "experts" can't make it work (though it should) for god knows what reason. Yes, I won't buy an XP system because it won't work with my machines due to backwards incompatible speed issues.

Well, microsoft did make networking software for DOS that allowed it to use file and printer sharing with windows machines. I've done it and it does work but you have to use the correct (and now ancient) equipment.

Why not use CDROM??? Haven't found a rom burner that works with DOS and some programs are getting too big for floppy's.

I have that problem with my mill. It's SUPPOSED to have networking but that is broke for some stupid reason (I believe it's hardware failure.) What I did was cut a hole into the controller's enclosure and put a parallel port ZIP drive into the hole. There's DOS drivers for zip drives so now I can send 100MB to the mill on a single disk.

My peeve is that legacy systems are/were simply abandoned. I suspect DOS code isn't even taught in computer science anymore. Yet, there is/are plenty of machines being scrapped (CNC, PC, whatever) or people are being horribly gouged for orphan technology just because "sorry but ISA m/b's are obsolete..." or you can't buy a motherboard anymore with ISA slots.

Well, it's supply and demand. You don't make money by selling the same thing for twenty years when your competitors are going bigger/faster/better. It's life. The computer world moves at a fast rate and it's too expensive to support legacy and/or just plain ancient hardware. And, so, the supply of older hardware dries up eventually.

What do you think would happen if the power company changed from 120vac to 180 vac and you had to buy all new appliances every so often??? Probably hourly shootings. Growth and advancement with PC's is inevitable. HOwever, when a business (especially a small one) has to spend hard earned capital to buy an all new computer because the new software update isn't backwards compatible to a lesser powered one, SOMEBODY missed the boat and money is being spent unnecessarily on things that don't provide suitable value....

It's true what you say. However, it's also life. Unfortunately it's nearly impossible to stay afloat without adding features and adding features leads to bloat. Bloat leads to slowness, slowness leads to the dark side. The only fix is to rewrite software from the ground up every so often but that will never happen. I too wish that bloat didn't make a simple text editor suddenly take a 2Ghz machine to even run properly. It's stupid but it's not surprising.

Isn't it amazing that a 2 wire phone system can transmit ungodly amounts of data between your home and a central terminal, even at 28.8 or 53K??? Imagine, 2 simple wires. Yes it isn't DSL or cable speed but its still pretty darn fast all things considered. And I'll bet that they still can do even MORE as technolgy evolves with the same 2 measly wires....

I'll bet a lot of people don't know this but DSL uses just 2 wires just like a normal phone line. So two wires can transmit around 6 megabits per second with DSL.

There's too much stuff going to landfills that still works but "just ain't fast enough any more". I dunno about you but if I screw up an input on a spreadsheet, the screen still updates faster with my 233mhz Pentium after I hit ENTER than I can say "Oh s**t".

Yeah but I also remember what CAD and CAM software was like on 100Mhz machines and it SUCKED. There's nothing like waiting all night for one toolpath to generate only to find out that you did it wrong. I wouldn't trade my 2.54Ghz machine to go back to that.

At that rate, why do I need one that screws up even faster (asside from being able to run NASCAR simulator which is NOT something that needs to be loaded on computers at work or in my office)???

Well, maybe so that you can have realtime 3D view of the CAD file you are working on, or maybe so that toolpaths generate in 20 seconds instead of 2 hours? Maybe so that your machine can run 2000ipm instead of 200? There's all sorts of reasons. Fast machines aren't evil, they do have plenty of legit uses.

I do agree however that a lot of time the system requirements for newer software are just plain sick.

[Death Adder]

Just a note,

I still am interested in fiddling w/ open source CAD/CAM stuff. As for what Dennis was saying... Well, you cannot begrudge someone for making money off of software. It's their right, it's their livelihood. But also, I do believe that it's possible for open source programs to also be good. Linux is aguably better than Windows. Granted, most really good open source apps (linux included) got that way because of massive corporate backing. That's the problem, even OpenCascade flowed out of a corporate backed program being open sourced. It may not be realistic for a bunch of volunteers to be able to beat Surfware or Gibbs but people can have fun trying. That's probably what most people understand. They ask: Why would you do it for free? And the answer is 1. to scratch an itch 2. because we like it.

And the quote about 10 people being able to do it? Hah... There's more than 10 people capable of doing ANYTHING on this planet. Whether it's programming a CNC system or doing quantum manipulation.

[WayneHill]

I have contributed code and debugging to another open source project a few years ago. It was an editor called SED for the PowerBasic language. They used common software programs in public domain and combined them to produce a kick ass program. The project was headed by one person!

http://com.it-berater.org/sed.htm


I would like to see an open source project started for CAD/CAM.

As far as only 10 people able to write a CAD/CAM - CNC O/S program - Dennis needs to get outside the shop more and meet new people.

[epineh]

but if I had a bit more gigaflops of widgit glom, I could do existential morphing of dirigibles if I use the fidoodle port like this

I couldn't hide a smile when I read that post, I'm sure most of us need more gagaflops of widgit glom every now and then...

IMO a step back is in order, firstly would an open source project be useful?
I don't think a free cnc software package would necessarily put any one out of a job (Software developers/companies) there is always choice, this would just mean one more choice.

The next thing is if the project is decided (by who... us?) to be useful and worth the effort, is there the knowledge base to carry out such a task.
Again in my opinion only, this forum last time I checked has over 31000 members, and very active ones at that, if the knowledge isnt here, it aint anywhere!

Now comes the fun stuff... what should the program/package do? The one constant that I have noticed is that there is no constant, there are more uses of cnc machines than you can poke a stick at, everyone has their own agenda. My thoughts would be a plugin based setup, where you specify down to the last minute detail what it is exactly you want to do, then the installer sets up the software to suit. Of course standards need to be adhered to, and different levels of use need to be taken into consideration - users may want to design in a program they are used to etc.

Of course it isnt as simple as writing a bit of code and handing it out, but one advantage here is that the field is VERY focused, using computers to control machinery, end of story. No other considerations need apply. Machines will have their own dedicated PC, the 3D modelling may be done on faster PC's, but as we see with NC Cams situation, older machines work just fine at the business end of the process. Software that runs on DOS is just so stable, it just isn't pretty to look at.

Now I am not the one to give a sermon on the pro's and con's of what the software should and shouldn't do, I am just another Noob putting together his first 3 axis router, but if there is enough interest in the first step - would an open source collaboration be useful? Well? If there is enough interest then what are you waiting for? If you do not think you agree with the concept or are not willing to divulge any hard earned coding trade secrets then dont get on board...I cannot imagine anybody begrudging any attempt to do such a thing on the basis they wouldn't do it, but if you have something to give...

What next? well I for one am tired and have to get up early for work so I am signing off

How would something like this start, polls, more threads on the subject?

BTW NC Cams, I cut my teeth on DOS based systems many years ago, we used to network our 486's with nothing more than ne1000 network cards, some rg58 and connections, and LOTS of beer for the sole purpose of gaming (Doom1!) we also HAD to be able to file transfer for various reasons, and as times progressed we did the same over the later versions of windows (at the time - win98 ) to DOS based machines, it can be done fairly easily, if you want to get those beasts networked I MAY be able to help... all those beers at the time didn't help the long term memory very much, hehe.

Russell.

[lwill]

Only 10 people?
Just remember - If you are "one in a million" then there are 11 people just like you in China!

[Geof]

Only 10 people?
Just remember - If you are "one in a million" then there are 11 people just like you in China!

You are missing a few zeroes.

[lwill]

Sorry, it was a badly remembered quote I heard years ago, but you get the idea.
(and I misread the chart, http://www.paulnoll.com/China/Popula...ion-total.html)