Set up time on a Multus??

[j44snk]

Hi,

We've just bought a Multus B400-W (awsome M/C!!!!)
I was just wondering if anyone has any idea's on expected program & set times.
Basically I recently did a job that involved the following: -

Low carbon steel casting - inturupted cut (lots of inclusions & impurites!!!!)
Program job complete from start to finish including the below, (tolerances were at best +/- .001" but most were +/-.005")

• probing
• 1st spindle - 18 processes on IGF
• Transfer
• 2nd spindle - 7 processes on IGF
• Program & mill jaws on main spindle
• Program, Turn & mill jaws on Subspindle

Loading & measuring 22 tools
Set workshifts, prove out program & reprogram several times until all is good!!

Program includes: -

• Helical Milling
• Circular Interpolation
• Off Center Circular Interpolation
• Turning
• Plunge milling
• Drilling
• Tapping
• Milling Internal Radii
• Internal Threadmilling NPT

In total I spent 3 days (30 hours), which I didn't think was too bad as it is the second job we have done on our machine, unfortunatley the company owners have expressed their concern that I'm taking too long.

Am I just slow or is the company just not using realistic times?

What is everyone else's experience or thoughts??

Thanks

[littlerob]

I don't have any experience with a multus, but I have run and set up an NZ two spindles and 32 tool stations live and fixed, its time consuming, It sounds to me like that is a reasonable amount of setup time. With two spindles, live tools, a new machine, a new job, it takes as long as it takes. It sounds to me like you know what your doing. Sometimes owners (especially the ones who aren't machinists) don't understand that. If you want a sound setup, and a repeatable one, it takes time.


I have the same issue, and it comes down to me telling him "show me how to do it faster and i'll do it!!!" Of course this doesn't make him very happy because he can't, but that IS life. Set up is still billable time regardless of how long it takes. Robert


Though maybe i'm being bias because I have the same problem, I would like to hear from some owners, what their view is.

[Geof]

The second job on a new machine and your boss is getting picky about times? Unfortunately he would probably be upset if you told him to stuff off for a couple of months. What you described over 30 hours sounds reasonable to me. I think you just have to grin and bear it.

[littlerob]

Originally Posted by Geof The second job on a new machine and your boss is getting picky about times? Unfortunately he would probably be upset if you told him to stuff off for a couple of months. What you described over 30 hours sounds reasonable to me. I think you just have to grin and bear it.

There you have it, if Geof said it. Grinning and bearing it is trying for me. I feel like there is only so much of it I can do, but I guess I do it on near every job. Robert

I am still curious to hear from some owners on the subject though. Maybe just to vent

[Geof]

Originally Posted by littlerob .....I am still curious to hear from some owners on the subject though. Maybe just to vent

You did; me.

You don't think I actually work for a living do you considering the time I spend fooling around on here.

[littlerob]

I don't believe that your the owner of any manufacturing firms with your reasonable responses and your thoughts on tool life and your general knowledge of machining process. I'm not buying it.

[Geof]

Originally Posted by littlerob .. I'm not buying it.

That is a good thing, it's not for sale.

[AppsMan]

I have set up the Multus numerous time and 3 days isn't a long time to setup all you listed below. Obviously it depends on the complexity of the part but with 22 tools this takes quite some time to prove this all out. Sometimes these setups can be even longer. I have ran other manufacturers Mill/Turn machines as well and they are not any quicker to set up.
Shop owners tend not to understand how much work needs to go on to get these machines set up completely, but once running they are usually pretty happy.

[cncclimber]

Wow! 30 hours! I think your boss has every right to be upset, I was thinking maybe 45 minutes tops! That gives you 1 minute each tool and 23 minutes to program and proof!

seriously though, 30 hours for a second program on a part that sounds pretty complicated, is anywhere from pretty good to average in time. we got our multus back in mid-april and it is not a simple machine. I didn't know anything about okuma controls and we bought Esprit to program it. Trying to learn both things at once, and deal with the ever present post problems, things got pretty stressful.... and slow.....Now we are pretty much to the end of post issues(which actually taught me a lot about the control and programming of okuma) things are getting much better. Even now though, I think 2 days would be a respectable time to do a first article of what you describe. Its easy for bosses to see a fancy machine that is supposed to reduce cycle time and speed things up get all bent when the setup takes some time. they need to remember to think like you are setting up several machines not one. That is hard to think about sometimes. Like was previously said, once running I think they tend to calm down.

[cogsog]

I find J44SNK's question refreshing.He detected concern from his "owner" who no doubt just spent a huge pile of money on a new machine and tooling(if he was smart he will have tooled the machine correctly)No Doubt the owner was told the thing would do backflips and travel at the speed of light while setting itself up by itself by his machine tool salesman. There is often a terrible disconnect between the "owner" and the floor.I have no doubt this is propagated by poor comunication and lack of knowledge and a number of bad apple owners.The reality is that properly managed this advarsarial relationship does not need to exist. J44SNK is doing his homework and finding out if he is in the range for a setup like this so he is informed when he talks with his "owner".If the owner is smart he will listen and work with him to find ways to remove roadblocks to faster setups.The biggest non value activity in a manaufacturing firm is Setup.Setup reduction is critical for succes.The concept by one of the thread responders that it is paid for anyway is misgiuded.I have eleven top notch guys working for me .They all have kick ass PC's with full blown CAD/CAM packages.They are responsible for proggramming and setting up the parts from start to finish.They deserve enormous respect for the knoweledge they bring to the table on a minute by minute basis.We are into 5 axis and are alway's in the .0002" range and are often required to hold crazy true position tolerances.Once people relaize that it is a symbiotic relationship between the "owner" and the guys working for him.It is often lost in the background noise that the owner takes all the financial risk...is the first guy to take a pay cut if things get tight and he and his family will suffer significantly if failure is a result of assuming this is all we can expect.The first guys shown the door at my shop are the ones that arent team players and who mistakenly think that they will advance themselves by holding back information and ideas to protect there little fifedom.This hurts the company and therefore hurts the comanies ability to take care of the people working there.Clearly as mentioned before there are bad apples out there that dont understand this from the "owners" side and create serius animosity.Simply put the biggest asset We have as an company are the people working for us.I should mention that we do tons of prototypes and short run production so we are always setting up and cannot afford to go down the wrong setup path toop often..Our people work together lvery closely to solve these problems all day long....

[budgieW]

Interesting thread this one.

I think the key here is that j44snk says "this is only the second job this person has dome on this machine"

25 process in IGF is really not that many although IGF does not do plunge milling so how was this programmed?

Are you using IGF one touch or IGF two touch?

Do you have ADMAC 3D virtual monitor?

Did this time include setting up the CAS system?

[littlerob]

Originally Posted by cogsog The concept by one of the thread responders that it is paid for anyway is misgiuded.

I don't think that is misguided at all, granted if it is the first or second job it is much more difficult to quote setup time. But if Billy Joe can get a job set up in 2 hours, the customer should be billed for that two hours. Now herein lies the problem when Billy Joe can get it set up in 2 hours but a$$ hat takes 5 then that is where the communication comes into play. I agree with the non understanding of machinists who protect their knowledge, and don't want to share it, it is mind boggling to me. But setup is billable time, maybe I should have worded it differently, I think I said setup is billable REGARDLESS of how long it takes, that is not correct. But if setup time is established it is absolutely billable.

Robert