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    Default Need some help with older model Okumas

    So the Okumas i learned on were of the GENOS-300 era. When i try to use "referential" callouts like:

    X=.25+VTWOX[13]
    <---assume this is for say T04, but i want to reference T13 during the T04 cut


    I just get error messages. Is there another way to reference a separate offset inside the same cut using another code for older machines? I'd like to be able to make programs that will run in older models and newer models as well, but i realize that may not be possible. Any/all help would be greatly appreciated.



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    Default Re: Need some help with older model Okumas

    hi ripper

    please, 1st of all i want to understand what you are after; i also use VTWO*, but generaly it is on the left side of the " = "

    when you move it to the right side, especially for computing real cnc coordinates, you are doing tricks, aren't you ?

    of course, on older control generations, such variables may not be compatible, but if i knew what you are after, i may suggest an alternative / kindly

    we are merely at the start of " Internet of Things / Industrial Revolution 4.0 " era : a mix of AI, plastics, human estrangement, powerful non-state actors ...


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    Default Re: Need some help with older model Okumas

    I think you want VTOFX[13] for x offset 13...

    Experience is what you get just after you needed it.


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    Default Re: Need some help with older model Okumas

    hello mr Wizard it maybe possible that this guy is talking about a control that does not suport VTOF* or VTWO*

    i think he is trying to sync/corelate corections, like updating a secondary tool from a master tool

    ... and this is tricky, if such system variables are missing

    he may measure the tools, run few parts, input initial corections so to get the desired dimensions, and after that use a common variable to input a master_corection; he may acces it's value at any point inside the program, to update a fraction of a (or an entire) toolpath of one ( or more ) tools; it is something like using a master tool, that will update corections for all the tools on the turret, only that it is a bit customizable

    ... and this is tricky, if such common variables are missing, but maybe there is a solution even in such a case

    again, i am not sure what he wants just a guess

    we are merely at the start of " Internet of Things / Industrial Revolution 4.0 " era : a mix of AI, plastics, human estrangement, powerful non-state actors ...


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    Quote Originally Posted by OkumaWiz View Post
    I think you want VTOFX[13] for x offset 13...
    Why replace the W with an F?



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    Quote Originally Posted by deadlykitten View Post
    hello mr Wizard it maybe possible that this guy is talking about a control that does not suport VTOF* or VTWO*

    i think he is trying to sync/corelate corections, like updating a secondary tool from a master tool

    ... and this is tricky, if such system variables are missing

    he may measure the tools, run few parts, input initial corections so to get the desired dimensions, and after that use a common variable to input a master_corection; he may acces it's value at any point inside the program, to update a fraction of a (or an entire) toolpath of one ( or more ) tools; it is something like using a master tool, that will update corections for all the tools on the turret, only that it is a bit customizable

    ... and this is tricky, if such common variables are missing, but maybe there is a solution even in such a case

    again, i am not sure what he wants just a guess
    I use VTWO* for things like taper control or offsetting one or more ODs/IDs/lengths over long runs as it helps with tighter tolerances (i work as tight as +/-.00035) as the inserts wear.



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    Default Re: Need some help with older model Okumas

    Quote Originally Posted by georgeripper View Post
    I use VTWO* for things like taper control or offsetting one or more ODs/IDs/lengths over long runs as it helps with tighter tolerances (i work as tight as +/-.00035) as the inserts wear
    hy ripper well, i guess, almost everybody does that

    Quote Originally Posted by georgeripper View Post
    X=.25+VTWOX[13] <---assume this is for say T04, but i want to reference T13 during the T04 cut
    please explain this a little more : do you wish for a secondary tool to update its corection automatically, based on a master tool ? i dont understand what you are after

    Quote Originally Posted by georgeripper View Post
    Why replace the W with an F?
    it is not about replacing, but a perspective about the way corections are input; it is possible to input corections :
    ... inside the main field of the interface(*1) , which is linked inside the progam by VTOF*
    ... inside the second field of the interface(*2), which is linked inside the progam by VTOW*
    ... inside both of them ( VETF* = VTOF* + VTWO* )
    ... inside another interface fields, or even without using the interface, etc

    (*1) : blue field inside attached image, for an osp300 interface
    (*2) : the field underneath it

    kindly !

    we are merely at the start of " Internet of Things / Industrial Revolution 4.0 " era : a mix of AI, plastics, human estrangement, powerful non-state actors ...


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    Quote Originally Posted by deadlykitten View Post
    hy ripper well, i guess, almost everybody does that



    please explain this a little more : do you wish for a secondary tool to update its corection automatically, based on a master tool ? i dont understand what you are after



    it is not about replacing, but a perspective about the way corections are input; it is possible to input corections :
    ... inside the main field of the interface(*1) , which is linked inside the progam by VTOF*
    ... inside the second field of the interface(*2), which is linked inside the progam by VTOW*
    ... inside both of them ( VETF* = VTOF* + VTWO* )
    ... inside another interface fields, or even without using the interface, etc

    (*1) : blue field inside attached image, for an osp300 interface
    (*2) : the field underneath it

    kindly !
    I use +VTWO* to change a specific aspect of a cut without changing the entire geometry of the cut.
    For instance of the cut has 2 heights:
    1st height: X.25
    2nd height: X.5
    Now if one height tends to fluctuate too much, i use +VTWO* and mirror that tool's geometry in an unused tool:
    T04: X.0003 Z3.405
    T13: X.0003 Z3.405
    Now say the .25 diameter ia fluctuating more, but i don't want to modify the .5 cut. Then i would have the values look like this:
    1st: X=.25+VTWOX[13]
    2nd: X.5
    Now when the .25 moves i just offset with the X in tool 13 so that it ONLY effects the .25 cut, and adjust both normally with T04's X offset.



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    Default Re: Need some help with older model Okumas

    hy ripper lets consider a part with 3 diameters ( oA, oB & oC in attach ), and 3 tolerances ( blue fields in attach ) for each diameter

    green color represents the lathe accuracy

    of course, everybody wants to machine many-many well paid parts with tolerance much greater than acuracy, so to have less worries if output dimensions are stable at the middle of the tolerances, than is even better ( attached, left side )

    when tolerance and accuracy have similar values, stuff appears, like setup stability decreases, etc attached, right side

    i will share my approaches on this situation, and i hope something will help you

    1) when preparing a program, depending on part conditions, i may create a toolpath that will hit all tolerances inside the middle, or at a specific position inside the tolerance, thus i do not always program at the nominal value

    this will reduce the value of needed corections when the process is started, and also it is a way to verify if cnc is losing alingment during long runs

    i will explain this a bit : if the dimension is o27 [ -0.4 .. - 0.1 ], and i program o27, and the output dimension will be o27, than i must input a corection of circa -0.25, so to put the dimension within tolerace if i program o27-0.25, and the dimension will be o27-0.25, than no more corections will be needed

    in reality, if i program o27-0.25, the output dimension will be o27-0.25±eps; if the depth of cut is low, than eps should be < 0.03 .. 0.05, if eps is greater than those values, than something happened

    thus, the value of the needed corection tells me if the cnc has lost its alignment, without the need for phisically doing the checks

    when i align a lathe, for turning operations, eps is < 0.015, so i always reference this value

    you may consider this a maintenance trick for long runs

    2) if the process is long enough to gather data, than a tendency can be observed : for example, when dimension oA is at the middle of the tolerance, dimension oB is near the upper tolerance ( attached right ), even if the program is for the middle tolerances in such a case i may edit the program, so oB will no longer be at the middle, but a bit lower : after this prorgam modification, in reality, oB will be exactly at the middle; this trick will improve setup stability, because the value of corections will decrease, and i may avoid using a secondary corection

    3) ... but sometimes is hard to avoid secondary corections, especially when material is not homogenous, and inserts from various distributors are used, and operators are new i lived it not love it, lived it !

    please consider a toolpath with 3 sections, and that only the 2nd section needs a secondary corection

    3.1)
    Code:
        safe position + rpm + coolant + approach
        T010101
        cutting section 1
        T21 ( changing tool offset )
        cutting section 2
        T010101 ( main offset restored )
        cutting section 3
    * this should work on older controls

    on osp300, code may look like this :
    Code:
        safe position + rpm + coolant + approach
        T+1*10101
        cutting section 1
        T+VETLN+20 ( i use 20 as the difference between main and secondary offset; pls check image from post 7, numbers inside columns "offset no 1" and "offset no 2" )
        cutting section 2
        T+VETLN
        cutting section 3
    please check also this answer from mr Wizard :

    Quote Originally Posted by OkumaWiz View Post
    T010101 = RTO
    T0101 = TO
    T01 = O
    R : radius link
    T : turret post
    O : offset link

    3.2)

    Code:
        NOEX V91 = 0 ( translation for X axis )
        NOEX V92 = 0 ( translation for Z axis )
    
        safe position + rpm + coolant + approach
        T...
      ( section 1 begins here )
        X=... + V91     Z=...+V92
        X=... + V91     Z=...+V92
        X=... + V91     Z=...+V92
      ( section 2 begins here )
        X=... + V91+V90 Z=...+V92
        X=... + V91+V90 Z=...+V92
        X=... + V91+V90 Z=...+V92
      ( section 3 begins here )
        X=... + V91     Z=...+V92
        X=... + V91     Z=...+V92
        X=... + V91     Z=...+V92
    there are several ways for inputing data inside V90 :
    ... from the program : put this line " NOEX V90 = 0.012 ( auxiliary translation for X axis )" at the begining ( * this should work on older controls )
    ... from the parameters, where common variables are ( * this should work on older controls )
    ... read interface values : put this line " NOEX V90 = VNSRX [ VETLN ] ( auxiliary translation for X axis )" after the T line, inside the code

    3.3) using VSZOX and/or VZSHX delivers same results, but i wont go into this now

    Quote Originally Posted by georgeripper View Post
    i work as tight as +/-.00035
    please, how do you measure those dimensions ? have you ever used a micrometer with bigger thimble, so to improve measuring repetability ?



    i tried to explain things as short as possible; i hope their is something that will help kindly !

    we are merely at the start of " Internet of Things / Industrial Revolution 4.0 " era : a mix of AI, plastics, human estrangement, powerful non-state actors ...


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    Default Re: Need some help with older model Okumas

    Quote Originally Posted by georgeripper View Post
    X=.25+VTWOX[13] <---assume this is for say T04, but i want to reference T13 during the T04 cut
    one more thing ripper : points 3.1 - 3.3 from pevious post deliver same thing like when using VTWO*, while difference is in stability : if somehow an operator inputs a corection inside the field referenced by VTOF*, and not VTWO*, than your code may fail of course, you may say that this does not happen, but is good to code in a manner that will avoid such particular cases

    idea is to handle exceptions without using safe scenarios

    now, i will make your approach safer here :

    Code:
       IF [ VTOFX [  4 ] EQ initial_offset_04 ] NSKP1
            NRPT1 M0 ( exception occured )
            GOTO NRPT1
       NSKP1 NOEX
    
       IF [ VTOFX [ 13 ] EQ initial_offset_13 ] NSKP2
            NRPT2 M0 ( exception occured )
            GOTO NRPT2
       NSKP2 NOEX
    
        safe position + rpm + coolant + approach
        T040404
    
      ( section 1 begins here )
        X=...      Z=...
        X=...      Z=...
        X=...      Z=...
      ( section 2 begins here )
       NOEX V90 = VTWOX [ 13 ]
        X=... +V90 Z=...
        X=... +V90 Z=...
        X=... +V90 Z=...
      ( section 3 begins here )
        X=...      Z=...
        X=...      Z=...
        X=...      Z=...
    that's better this won't allow inputing corections inside the main field

    there are ways to increase the safety level even more, protecting the setup from wrong operators inputs / kindly !

    we are merely at the start of " Internet of Things / Industrial Revolution 4.0 " era : a mix of AI, plastics, human estrangement, powerful non-state actors ...


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    Default Re: Need some help with older model Okumas

    Older machines did not normally have the wear offset register and therefore the variable did not exist. If there is no wear screen, you have no wear variable. E-100 was the first to add wear. p100 and newer it became standard.

    IF the T14 command is on the line with a move, it will become effective as the line is executed, so cutting a taper is as easy as Z-1 T14.
    If you are on T13 and switch to T14 which is .001+ in X, as Z moves to Z-1, it will also move up .001 in X.

    Experience is what you get just after you needed it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by OkumaWiz View Post
    Older machines did not normally have the wear offset register and therefore the variable did not exist. If there is no wear screen, you have no wear variable. E-100 was the first to add wear. p100 and newer it became standard.

    IF the T14 command is on the line with a move, it will become effective as the line is executed, so cutting a taper is as easy as Z-1 T14.
    If you are on T13 and switch to T14 which is .001+ in X, as Z moves to Z-1, it will also move up .001 in X.
    Does that concept work with ANY offset beyond T12? Can it be used more than once in a program?



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    Default Re: Need some help with older model Okumas

    It works with all offsets. Normally 1-32 on each turret with more available optionally. No limit on number of times you can switch offsets.

    Experience is what you get just after you needed it.


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Need some help with older model Okumas

Need some help with older model Okumas