how do you avoid tool pull out ?


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Thread: how do you avoid tool pull out ?

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    Default how do you avoid tool pull out ?

    hello ladies and gents during a setup, my o16end mills were slowly pulled out at each operation

    back than i use this : https://www.wnt.com/mastertool/?fcod...y=83629160&L=1

    it stopped the tool from getting out, but the collet rotated inside the holder

    after a while i replaced the er collet with hydra collets, and all was great until tring to pull out the collets from the hydra holder, that got stucked, because small swarf entered through the collet grooves; i think that is good to use sealing disks so to avoid swarf inside the coolet, but so far i saw that such disks are only for elastic collets (er oz, etc), but not for hydra collets this is a bit weird, because elastic collets can still be removed easily if there is swarf inside them, while a hydra collet will damage the membrane inside the holder

    now back to tools pulled out : today i found this : secuRgrip® :: rego-fix.com
    maybe i will give them a try

    also at regofix you may find some er32 collets with non-standard dimensions : 2.5, 3.5, 4.5, .. 19.5, 21 , 22 : ER Collets :: rego-fix.com

    shanks 9.7 .. 9.9 may be clamped into a "precision collet dia=10" and the collet may still have good tir when clamping back 10, or into a "colet with -1 domain", that theoretically may clamp shank10 and shank9; in reality, clamping shank 9 into a dia10 collet will lead to elastic frontal deformation in that collet; this is why ".5" collets are pretty good for non-nominal shanks because they will reduce collet deformation ... kindly !

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    we are merely at the start of " Internet of Things / Industrial Revolution 4.0 " era : a mix of AI, plastics, human estrangement, powerful non-state actors ...


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    Member deadlykitten's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do you avoid tool pull out ?

    Weldon shank or ER40 for heavy endmill operations
    hydraulic holders should be better than er collets ...

    short hydraulic holders should be better normal ones

    i think that shrink fit are better than hydra, but so far i never used them ... i heard that low quality "shrink fit holders" will get out of use pretty soon, thus such stuff should be purchased from trusted sources

    er50 is still an option if you like er

    ER25-32 for medium roughing to light duty finishing
    i think that collets are ok for drilling; for milling is better to use bigger sized collets or better holders, because of side forces

    also is good to use bigger colets if you are near the maximum shank for that collet size : normal er32 can hold up to shank20, but is better to use er40 starting from shank 16, or something like that

    Rego-Fix power collets are known to be very good
    i guess they are rock stars i heard that you too are pretty good

    we are merely at the start of " Internet of Things / Industrial Revolution 4.0 " era : a mix of AI, plastics, human estrangement, powerful non-state actors ...


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    Member deadlykitten's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do you avoid tool pull out ?

    i do not use torque keys ...

    on collet is not just the key / torque, but : thread class, bearing nut, how deep the collet enters inside the collet chuck, and contact area

    a bit too many if you ask me all these can be verified, but only if needed

    we are merely at the start of " Internet of Things / Industrial Revolution 4.0 " era : a mix of AI, plastics, human estrangement, powerful non-state actors ...


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    Default Re: how do you avoid tool pull out ?

    collet stuff :
    ... precision class
    ...... i buy from Kintek - Home, sealed collets, 2nd precision class ( tirr <= 0.010 )
    ... thread class
    ...... i don't mess my head with this
    ... bearing nut
    ...... i replaced soon al nuts with this type
    ... how deep the collet enters inside the collet chuck
    ...... collets with -1 domain do not enter as much as those for h6/h7
    ... contact area
    ...... holders and collets from same provider




    please take a look into attached image :
    ... "down half" is a common case : collet with -1 clamping domain, that sticks out from the chuck with more than +1mm compared to a collet for nominal shanks using a normal nut leads to torsion forces on the collet thus the collet is machining the chuck when clamped
    ... "up half " is how i setup my collets : for nominal dimension, thus less stick out from the holder, and bearing nuts

    contact area is good to be towards entrance : i check this with a marker+rotating the collet by hand inside the chuck, especially when i must craft custom collet arbors




    er collets are pretty common, but there are producers that craft collets as they wish, and they try to deliver "particularities" so to convince you to buy from them :
    ... same tirr achieved at a greater L/D ratio
    ... tougher / longer holders, etc
    ... special sealing nuts so to avoid swarf getting inside
    ... screw on the back so to achieve repetability when clamping the tool
    ... secu grip from rego-fix : PG secuRgrip® :: rego-fix.com
    ... so far, nothing from this list made me cry but the nikken collets that have internal grooves : please check attached

    ps : i am still looking for hydra holders with sealing disks or sealed hydra colets

    we are merely at the start of " Internet of Things / Industrial Revolution 4.0 " era : a mix of AI, plastics, human estrangement, powerful non-state actors ...


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    Default Re: how do you avoid tool pull out ?

    on mill i use strong hydra holders, from SECO; compared to normal ones, they are shorter and deliver higher torque

    if it will be required, i will think of "shrink-fit" or "power grip", but i don't see that to happen in the near future

    pls find attached :
    ... infos for SECO strong hydra holders
    ... infos for SECO shrink fit
    ... chart for Rego Fix powRgrip ...

    from delivered torque perspective, it seems that strong hydras are pretty good



    "pull out" happened on lathe; i think it was because of vibrations ... live tools with hiydra chucks sounds pretty cool, but so far i did not see such a construction as a whole, but modular, thus you may change the head : collet, hydra, milling head, etc ... modularity = less rigidity

    we are merely at the start of " Internet of Things / Industrial Revolution 4.0 " era : a mix of AI, plastics, human estrangement, powerful non-state actors ...


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    Default Re: how do you avoid tool pull out ?

    please, do you think that is a hole ? or seal ? link here : Reduzierungen f

    we are merely at the start of " Internet of Things / Industrial Revolution 4.0 " era : a mix of AI, plastics, human estrangement, powerful non-state actors ...


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    Default Re: how do you avoid tool pull out ?

    yup, that is pretty true i guess a lot of cnc guys and girls grew up with such collets ; got attached, etc

    oh, my dear collet, please grip this drill and wait for the coolant to come

    collets are for normal drilling and light milling, since they can not handle well side forces

    we are merely at the start of " Internet of Things / Industrial Revolution 4.0 " era : a mix of AI, plastics, human estrangement, powerful non-state actors ...


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    Default Re: how do you avoid tool pull out ?

    sealled colletts have less slots and less grip
    or they have more slots and better grip because of tighter crafting tolerances, when used on shanks that are grinded on nominal values, thus only zeros : 12, 14, 9, etc, not 9-0.1

    depends on seal method and collet clamping domain : there are :
    ... sealed collets with :
    ...... 8 slots : only 4 pierce through frontal
    ...... 16 slots : only 8 pierce through frontal
    ... sealed by rubber or metalic seal
    ... clamping domain only h7

    er32 is 100ftlb
    as shank increases, collets becomes more rigid, thus same clamping force aplied on a smaller tool will generate more elastic behaviour inside the collet body

    overtightening will deformate collets frontal, and this behaviour appears sooner on collets for smaller tools, while for bigger tools this behaviour is not so pronounced

    thus same force aplied :
    .. on a smaller shank collet will raise above grip value pretty soon, deforming collets frontal
    .. on a bigger shank coolet will reach grip, and stay there, without deforming the frontal, but that value may not be enough to grip the tool

    this can be felt by hand :
    .. you may feel like there is still room to tight a small tool
    .. you may feel like you can not clamp a bigger tool

    tightening force is not constant, but relative to tool shank diameter ... also when you get close to upper range of the coolet, than plastic behaviour appears sooner

    hard to get with a standard spanner
    cncs make it harder to develop machinig feel, and operators are generally fragile compared to classical sectors

    thus is easier to set a torque wrench and tight, instead of feeling how much a collet should be tighten

    we are merely at the start of " Internet of Things / Industrial Revolution 4.0 " era : a mix of AI, plastics, human estrangement, powerful non-state actors ...


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    Default Re: how do you avoid tool pull out ?

    sealled colletts have less slots and less grip
    if you search, you may find sealed collets with as many slots as normal collets

    as number of slots increases, tirr get compromised, because collet deformation is higher compared to one with less slots

    of course, more slots, means more contact points : but are those still on a circle ?

    to keep the tir, and a good grip, than collet deformation when clamping must be minimal; this means :
    ... less slots
    ... less collet hangout from the chuck
    ... clamp only h7
    ... etc

    precision collets do not have many slots, or, if you wish, not as many as normal / standard collets

    i use kintek collets with 8 slots, rubber sealed, 4 slots pierce the frontal; you can not find precision er collets with less than 8 slots

    we are merely at the start of " Internet of Things / Industrial Revolution 4.0 " era : a mix of AI, plastics, human estrangement, powerful non-state actors ...


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    Default Re: how do you avoid tool pull out ?

    there is something from SCHUNK : TENDO Aviation

    at this moment, this product is no longer on schunk's website

    please find attached video

    edit : i found the link



    we are merely at the start of " Internet of Things / Industrial Revolution 4.0 " era : a mix of AI, plastics, human estrangement, powerful non-state actors ...


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how do you avoid tool pull out ?

how do you avoid tool pull out ?