turret alignment

[deadlykitten]

hello, i need to prepare a lathe for a ~7D hole

i need that all tools working here to be in spindle axis.

the lathe had a crash some time ago, and after that it was realigned by the dealer, but i saw while working that realingment was not so good.

another service team come back and verified the alignment, and find diferences. They wanted to repeat the alignmet method, so to remove the errors.

alignment method :
- turret align among Z axis
- turret align among X axis
- turret align with spindle center, as in 00.jpg

I refused the realignment, because between these 2 services the machine didn't move/work, and diference was ~0.2 at [ turret align with spindle center, as in 00.jpg ], so tool axis was radial

So i worked a while with the machine missaligned, because parts were simple, and alignment was not necesary.

Now i need to align the machine for this 7D hole, were tools are ~200mm long.
Hole geometry : 26.5 [ 0 .. +0.14 ] x 180

Turret is as in 01 and 02 images. Excentric stift/bolt from the turret poligon are a bit messed up, so i need to align them first.

Excentric bolt is in 01 image, marked with red.

So, please, how would you verify this :
- drils to be in spindle center
- live M axis to be perpendicular and intersecting spindle axis

In my opinion :
- for [drils to be in spindle center] : all excentric bolts/stifts must be indexing at the same position, and this position must be at aligned relative to spindle
- for [live M axis to be perpendicular and intersecting spindle axis] : the 60mm hole in turett poligon must have it's center perp. and intersecting spindle axis

This alignments should be done without holders on the turret, because turrets have their own errors. A new turret has a geometrical repetability at indexing under 0.02mm

A holder has it's own manufacturing errors, under 0.015 .. 0.02 mm; so aligning a turret with a holder on it can be done only for one post from 12 available. Once you move the holder to another post, you can be missalinged.

So, i think i must not ask how would you align a turret, but how would you verify this :
- drils to be in spindle center
- live M axis to be perpendicular and intersecting spindle axis

kindly

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[deadlykitten]

need 2 reload this post :rainfro: enjoy this until then

[deadlykitten]

hello, i am going to allign this pins ... is there a method for this ? kindly !

[deadlykitten]

You have a radial M turret ... and not possible without the proper tools

hello please, can you share the principle behind it ? ... kindly !

[deadlykitten]

finally, i just finished my 1st alignment i will share with info about :

... turret + pins alingment
... M+S coaxiality
... X&Y encoders origin
... senzor calibration
... goal : alignment matters more when driling than turning; there will be holders alignment issues and sleeves crafting, because s***t happens

[deadlykitten]

This process is much more then what you say here, have you alligned the M spindle drive to the center of the holders when they are resting on the fixing pin?

i only checked this alignment it proved ok ... however, i am still curious how to realign the M spindle if something is wrong so far, because it works, i won't deep into this; i will do only if something happens / please, do you have a procedure for this, just in case ?

Have you checked the run out of the turret stations and adjusted?

runout is ok, so live holders main arbor won't hit into M spindle, because of their length deviations

[deadlykitten]

hey, that drawing is awesome ... i like it

i am aware of what you say ... i am just curious about the procedure and afferent tools

[deadlykitten]

finally, i just finished my 1st alignment i will share with info about :

... turret + pins alingment
... M+S coaxiality
... X&Y encoders origin
... senzor calibration
... goal : alignment matters more when driling than turning; there will be holders alignment issues and sleeves crafting, because s***t happens

i just saw that post by Jmooresshop, about turret alignment, and i remembered that i forgot to share some tricks

for this method to work properly:
... turret must be "zero" on X and Z
... "M+S coaxiality" must be verified before

craft part from image 2 ( or left on image 1 ) :
... o53, as shown in image 3, is a diameter concentric with turret hole; a tangent between these circle and the excentric pin is horizontal
... o60.25 is the diameter of the turret hole; this value differes between lathes, but on same lathe/turres is constant, because is a technological base during turret crafting
... thus, this part from image 2 must be crafted differently for each lathe/turret
... bought o30 are for between center grinding, so they have only technological purpose
... grinding between centers should deliver high concentricity between o53 and o60.25
... o53 and o60.25 are crafted tight, within microns tolerance
... the play between this part and the turret hole is achived on the o60.25
... once this part is inside the turret, use the comparator among the yellow line from image 3, and allign the excentric pin
... take that part out from the turret
... now index the turret, and align the rest of the pins relative to the 1st pin aligned, thus indexing errors are eliminated

this method aligns the excentric pins without using the holder + coax watch, but relative to turret geometry; delivers "zero", or, if u wish, kitty style, deadly accurate

after this point, S and M axis must intersect; it may be possible that they don't intersect

most common method is using an ID holder, and the coax in the spindle : turret is adjusted until coax shows 0; at this moment distance between S and M is <0.03, because of holder deviations and coax precision, but this value is more than enough for turning

intersecting S and M can be done more precise without using a holder, but this is too much for general turning, because knifes can cut a bit offset, and if M must intersect S, thus a hole should be cut perpendicular on a part, than this is why mils are build are for

[deadlykitten]

finally, i just finished my 1st alignment i will share with info about :

... turret + pins alingment
... M+S coaxiality
... X&Y encoders origin
... senzor calibration
... goal : alignment matters more when driling than turning; there will be holders alignment issues and sleeves crafting, because s***t happens

craft part from image 4, or right side in image 1 :
... o35 and o22.3 are for between centers grinding; you may ignore the o45
... o22.3 should be as big as your live mill main ax, in the area where is clamped in the M spindle
... o60.25 is described in the previous post, and must have a minimal play when this part is inserted inside the turret
... o42 is just a reduction between o60.25 and o22.3
... on o22.3 mill the "tail" at 10mm width, or same width as your live mill main ax, in the area where is clamped in the M spindle; this 10mm must be simetrical disposed on the o22.3
... these dimensions must be tight tolerated : o60.25, 12, 14, 62
... for 12, 14, 62, please check interference with the M spindle as shown in image 5, so to be sure that you don't crash the turret with this caliber part
... 5.5 is a dimension that stops this part from falling inside the turret; in image 6 is shown that, if this value is >6.058, than this part will kick the excentric pin
... once this part is inside the turret, rotate it by hand, and "feel" the alignment
... this part may deliver different result depending on the turret post, because the holes on the turret don't index the same
... however, this part makes contact on a o60.25 x 27 cilinder, while the live mill main ax makes contact with the bearing on a o25x10 cilinder
... if this part does not rotate inside the turret, than something is missaligned

however, a lathe may perform well if this part gets stuck, and this is happening if turret center is below/above spindle center, but the excentric pins are aligned to ameliorate this difference; this is a case when M & S are intersecting, holder is coaxial with S, but holder is not simetrical clamped on the turret

such a case is discovered by this part

[deadlykitten]

thus, last 2 posts are about this :
... considering M spindle in good condition, M spindle center is verified to be concentric with the turret hole, thus M spindle center is materialized in turret hole
... one excentric pin is aligned relativ to M spindle center, through a part that copies the turret hole
... all excentric follow this 1st one
... an id holder verifies excentric position to deliver concentricity with S, using a coax
... if something fails this last test, and holder is in good condition, than turret center is above/below spindle center
...... if distance is little, adjust excentric pins
...... if distance is great, than adjust turret

all tests start from a good condition M spindle; if my M will get some knoks, than i will learn to realign it

[deadlykitten]

finally, i just finished my 1st alignment i will share with info about :

... turret + pins alingment
... M+S coaxiality
... X&Y encoders origin
... senzor calibration
... goal : alignment matters more when driling than turning; there will be holders alignment issues and sleeves crafting, because s***t happens

this thread is about Y lathes; problem is that, once turret was realigned, if turret is moved until coax watch displays 0, than you can not go directly to parameters and declare the new origin for bought X & Y, because Y is active; X origin can not be reset if Y is active, and if Y is not activated, than coax will not show 0

how my dealer never aligned cnc's with Y, i have done myself

... initial base zero offset : x23924.610 y11849.746
... G138
... centro shows 0 for xi-20.035 yi0.051 ( x-40.247 > x-2*20.1235 > x = 2*xi ) live tool holder was used ( X-40 )
... deviations are xi-0.035 yi0.051
... modify Y base zero offset : y=11849.746+2*0.051
... G136
... G138
... centro shows 0 for xi-20.124 yi0 ( turret did not move )
... G136
... centro shows 0.05 for x-40.248(=2*xi) yi0 ( turret did not move )
... adjust X until centro shows 0
... modify X base zero offset : CALL

... repeat for Y & X until result are comfortable

if an Y lathe shows a_value on the coax for G136, it will show a_value+a bit ( 0.03 for my lathe ) for G138, because Y axis motor switches from "inactive" to "active"

[deadlykitten]

... senzor calibration

skip

... goal : alignment matters more when driling than turning; there will be holders alignment issues and sleeves crafting, because s***t happens

different ID holders, with a o40 hole/cilinder, will not index at same "cilinder" position

o40 hole tolerance, from holders producers, is an issue; they are craft on o40+

sleeves are craft on o40-

play between holders and sleves may be at least 0.01, but generaly is more; this is cause1 to lose concentricity precision

sleves have a precision between external and internal diameter, more precise, external cilinder is not concentric/colinear with internal cilinder; this is cause2 to lose concentricity precision

these 2 situations described above trigger huge deviations on long tools

solutions :
... minimize play between holders and sleeves; adjust holders after buying; mines are o40.035±0.003

... craft your own sleeves; mines are o40.015+0.002

... minimize play between sleeve and tool, by crafting an internal diameter on the sleve coresponding to the tool shank

... high concentricity between OD and ID, for sleeves, of course :
......... craft the sleeve without a 2nd clamp ( on a cnc lathe for example )
......... during OD grinding, also touch the frontal of the sleeve, thus frontal and OD are perpendicular; after, go to a vertical grinder, and put the sleeve on the frontal, and grind the ID
......... grind OD and ID direcltly, on a vertical grinder

... adjustable concentricity between "sleeve" and "S axis" :
......... on a vertical grinder, grind OD, move excentric, and grind ID > this sleeve will be adjustable kyocera delivers such products as standard for the drills with 2 inserts, as shown in attache image

... if high concentricity between OD and ID is hard to achieve, than forget it, and leave the sleeve as it is; craft a caliber :
...... with same length and shank as the tool
...... with same diameter as the tool; clamp this caliber in the sleeve, and rotate holder until Z proves 0; in most cases, will work, even if the caliber/tool is not coaxial with the spindle some long tools are designed to bend and still deliver some long tools, hard @ 55 HRC will still deliver, even if a bit offset; depends

[deadlykitten]

finally, i just finished my 1st alignment i will share with info about :

... turret + pins alingment
... M+S coaxiality
... X&Y encoders origin
... senzor calibration
... goal : alignment matters more when driling than turning; there will be holders alignment issues and sleeves crafting, because s***t happens

hello all time to reload this post; more exactly, how to set X encoder origin faster,safer and repeatable

classic aproach :
... centro inside the chuck
... palpator inside an ID holder
... issues :
...... requires a quality clamp, so to protect the centro shank
...... there may be some issues related with the centro ( complex mechanism )
...... ID holder must be in good condition ( maybe used only for this kind of alignments )
...... clamping repetability of the holder
...... too many, if you ask me

another aproach :
... centro inside a live holder
... palpator on a bar turned inside the chuck
... advantages :
...... turned material copies/materializes the S axis in the best possible way
...... centro clamp inside the live holder is basic stuff
... issues :
...... live holder condition
...... here are less issues, but still, there is room for improvement

[deadlykitten]

here are less issues, but still, there is room for improvement

take a dummy and grind it on bought faces

screw the dummy on the turret

put a zero gauge on the dummy

turn a bar and measure it

put the zero gauge in contact with the bar ( attached image )

do some math :
... expected_X_value = ( -90 + h ) * 2 + turned_diameter, where :
...... 90 : the distance between turret face and bore of the ID holder; also this represent the reference value for the X offset, thus X offset is zero at a position at 90 mm away from the turret
...... h : zero gauge calibration length ( 50.025 in my case ) + dummy width ( 10mm between grinded faces )
...... turned_diameter : measure the turned bar with a micrometer
... read from display real_X_value

go system para 2 / base zero X : ADD real_X_value - expected_X_value

---

repeatable within microns ingridients less complex than what other methods require ... also faster

turret alignment should be simple, accurate, and without holders

ps : this post will be followed by a solution to check Y alignment kindly !

[deadlykitten]

hello all i need to realign the turret on the lb3000ex2, and i found all the M12 screws a bit too easy to unscrew

i had tighten them the last time, and is like all of them had loosen grip

meanwhile i had been roughing, light crashes occured, but for the 1st time i feel like the M12 is too little; maybe M14 / M16 / M18 should be used

the turret is screwed with 6*M12, and a toolholder is screwed with 4*M12 / pls xcs me, but w.t.f. ?
nut length ( overlap before external and internal thread ) is circa17-20mm in both cases

please, what do you think ? kindly

[deadlykitten]

before alignment, i had dz=0.05 and dx<0.01; turret is like that from a while, and i would have left it like that, but i have to prepare a next setup, which uses long tools

i wanna share a trick : when aligning, i reduced dz from 0.05 to 0.02, but going from 0.02 to less than 0.005 required too much force ( with the hammer )

is not a good idea to finish the alignment using too much force, because it means that there is internal tension, which will be remanent after the alignment is done, thus the turret may lose alignment over night ( tension zones will tend to get uniform, and this may involve a bit of moving )

what i have done is kicking the turret in 3 corners with a relative gentle hammer kick, going from dz>0 to dz<0 ( thus misalignment in the opposite way ); this trick will move the turret away from the high friction zone, making it possible to go towards 0 using low force as a result, final kicks were not harder than a glass of water which is falling from 50mm height, but gentle taps

if possible, go towards 0 using low force / kindly

[Jeremy1]

I have a Genos L300-MY I am realigning and cannot figure out how to get to one of the bolts. Any help would be greatly appreciated.