Multus B300W fiasco

[mstlouis]

Has anyone experienced similar problems as we have? Let me explain.
We bought our Multus B300W just before IMTS'08. Upon arriving some of the options we're not available for 3 months so we had to sign off incomplete and pay the piper. So no power there.
Within the 1st month we had to have the software re-installed everyday for a week.
It took another couple months to work through many Alarms, getting Featurecam to generate the right code, and tweaking, tweaking, tweaking Caron Engineering's TMAC tool monitoring software.
Over the next year I spent every day on the phone & email with Caron trouble shooting alarms.
Caron Eng eventually says to return a board and they'll modify it, and send fresh software. Then they say I need an API software from Okuma.
All arrives and is installed.
BTW, I have a close friend that is an Okuma Certified Master Tech and Apps guy. I'm hiring him to deal with all the fuss because I have a business to run, not just one machine.
Along with the TMAC alarms, I continually got Thermal over temp alarms. Even when the Multus was just sitting idle, or just started up in the morning.
Also had tool changer lock ups. The sensor in the magazine would either be covered in sludge or Okuma told me I need to take all the black Capto tools and polish them shinny.
Eventually Okuma personnel arrived and they changed the temp setting on the spindle chiller unit, which stopped the Thermal Alarms.
Shortly after that, tools began getting stuck in the spindle, then began hanging out of the spindle. I learn there's a gas spring for the drawbar that has failed. Luckily it's under warranty because it's a $10k part.
All along I have a feeling something else is wrong because tool changes are crazy long. The turret will just sit there for seconds then do the tool change.
Well, sure enough, Okuma and local service are in my shop again taking the turret out to find dissolved hydraulic seals. Velocite oil mixing in the Hydraulic oil. They end up Overnight shipping/Saturday morning deliver a new hydraulic manifold. That's installed early the next week. It took 3 tries to get it in without tearing seals. Then remember the dissolved seals, well all those bit are throughout the hydraulic system. I was asked to run parts and we'll clean the valves every time the turret locks up due to contaminants.
I finally insisted they flush the entire hydraulic system.
Which they tried and stuff still was working it's way to the valves and stopping production.
Sometime around Thanksgiving the gas spring drawbar that was replaced 5 months earlier failed again. Okuma personnel and local service again tearing it down and trying to figure out what, why, and how to fix it.
They tell me I need coolant tubes for the tools. $5k later coolant tubes are in. Tool magazine tosses tools because it's not made to accommodate the tubes. More days down modifying the tool shuttle in the magazine.
Shortly after Christmas the Turret has to be removed again. I went on vacation and let Okuma take over my shop. Please fix it while I'm gone. I was told the turret was in & out at least 3X.
I get back from vacation and try to run production. The parts catcher is clunking and tilting back into the machine. I ask service what happened. They swear nothing. Well for the past 2 months they cannot fix the parts catcher. Earlier this week I tried to run production again and after 10hrs of parts, something locked up with the tool changer. The springs that clamp the tool shank when in the swing arm were crumbled. Rotted away like I've never seen metal rot. Well, it's back online again tonight. Let's see what else can break on it.
Oh yeah, there's a set screw plug on the bottom of the turret. Get a 10mm Allen wrench and pull it. Get a cup and see if anything comes out. I'm finding lots of Velocite oil with black particulate. Seals must be dissolving again.

Has anyone had any where near the bad luck I've had?
I only have 6 months left on my warranty......

Tonight I setup to run a part where half the features are cut using Y axis in T200 position. After running one part and measuring I discovered Y axis is out of position by 0.010". One feature is a hole that is drilled from both sides off center. When this part is finished a pin is supposed to be able to pass though the entire width of the part. Last month I notified Okuma and local service the Y axis is out 0.005". I could still get the pin through but it was tight.
Tonight, the pin will no longer go through. Okuma personnel were onsite 2/18/10 pulling the turret to to fix the 0.005" in Y axis. This week it's worse.
Obviously Okuma will have to come back next week and tear it all down again.

Has anyone had to request Okuma to take a machine back?

[DIFF OVER]

Yes, Yes and Yes. Being a former AE for an Okuma dealer, I would not recommend a Multus to anyone. I take that back, if you had a killer hand tool collection and lots of time, I would say buy two of them.

We put a B300 across the parking lot from us. Really awesome cause the customer can see you in your office while looking thru the window. This machine was put in the replace an Intergrex. It has been plaqued with issues. I never put a post processor on the builder.

This machine has turret issues, thermal issues, consistency, etc, etc. The customer actually came to the showroom to run parts on, as they could not hold size in their building on their Multus. Our showroom was far from temperature controlled and yes, our Multus could not make them in print either. We were so desperate; we ran their parts on a demo day hoping to please the customer. Very strange indeed.

This machine also has limit issues, and when service works on the machine, there is always one position parameter that gets hosed, and after a tool change the machine just pukes, and cannot be indexed because it’s not on the limit.

Luckily this machine does not have Caron on it. I feel your pain, because I have lived thru those trying times.

They are now looking to hire someone who can straighten this mess out. I do like the Multus, I love the OSP, but the Multus, in any size or configuration cannot live up to the hype.

Maybe if the Macturn / Multus Asst. Manual had some consistent information and was not updated weekly and actually sent to the distributors more help could be given.

I can name every Okuma multi machine in this five state area, they all are not running smooth. From the Macturn to Multus. Yes, some do get piled, and a little bump really throws them off. Some are lemons. And the dist, has to really reach to provide the customer with some piece of mind.

Kind of makes you feel you will get more from a top tier builder. Anyone can reply to this with good or bad stories or comments from their Okuma dealings. And yes, there are some solid Okumas out their banging out parts, while awesome in its own right, the Multus is NOT a real performer. I am not saying brand B is any better. But I feel your pain and frustration, and I really do wish you the best. Good luck sir.

[mstlouis]

Wow! And Okuma tells me I'm an unusual case. Maybe this is why they never offered to replace this machine if all or many Multus are not reliable.

I also run the MA400HA, horizontal mill. Before that I had the MCV3016 vertical mill, both beautiful performers. Highly productive machines. I chose the Multus to run bar feed lights out production. My choice to stay with Okuma was solely based on my previous experience.

Brand loyalty seems to have bitten me on the backside this time.

Does anyone have any suggestions or experience with requesting a machine builder to take a lemon machine back?

I requested via email to a top person at Okuma and my request was ignored. I didn't make this clear in the beginning but Okuma paid to have a service tech from the local service team stationed in my shop everyday, full time to work on this Multus. The guy worked here for months. They've been working on this thing almost daily since just before Thanksgiving '09. And he was here again just last week repairing the tool changer arm. It's like this machine is falling apart.

I'd love to hear any suggestions or advice on getting my money back and making Okuma take this machine back.

[mstlouis]

Hey DIFF OVER,

(by the way, I've seen diff over's way too often, great call-name!)

Have you ever had dealings with Larry Schwartz?

I called Larry to see if we could get some real help. First couple phone calls were promising.
The last time I spoke to Larry Schwartz, CEO Okuma America, he told me "you need to lower your standards" There are witnesses to this quote on both sides of the phone conversation.

I guess he was referring to accepting the Multus in it's current condition.

Way to go Larry Schwartz! Only problem, my customers won't buy lowered standards.

[zooloader]

Hi mstlouis,

We've had similar probs with our B300.

Hydraulic seals/ oil.
Turret misalignment.
ATC.
Solenoids.
CAS software.
Bar feeder.
Manuals.
Coolant nozzles/ filters.

But when it's running, it's great. Holds size all day, all night, don't have to chase anything. But I always arrive in the morning hoping it hasn't broken down!

[OkumaWiz]

Yes, add the LT300 disaster to the list...It's based on the MacTurn 250 and they both have had problems.

Going on 3 years and nearly 9 months of downtime...

1st machine has had ZB and WB linear axis replaced 2 times, 2nd machine had them replaced 1 time already while still under warranty. Turrets fail to index regularly, and software needs serious work to make the machine 1/2 as good as the U-100 was. ( my favorite is still the 5020L-G such a pleasure to work on...no interlock headaches, bulletproof software..ah, so nice.)

I give them credit for finally admitting there's "several problems" and taking care of it (partially so far) with new cover designs, flushes, and linear rails, but this is not the old Okuma I know and love. We are still waiting for coolant tank issues to be resolves since their modifications. It's either overflowing and leaking onto the floor or sucking air since the filter screens and coolant tank are too small for the machine.

Anyway...don't feel too bad, there are a lot of other builders with similar problems, but I'm surprised to see Okuma seems to be content with "we're not as bad as they are"

We were successful in returning a machine that crashed itself due to a software issue. Seems it forgot what turret station it was on and decided to machine with the wrong tool and offset...bent the linear guides on X and Y when if found the chuck with the wrong toolholder. NOT GOOD! We had documentation warning them how the problem occurred and had already been asking for months that they fix it before something bad happens.

Yup, Too late...


Best of luck,

[mstlouis]

Holding size has never been a problem with Okuma that I've experienced.
This is the #1 factor why I've been buying Okuma.

Unfortunately this Multus B300 has an axis problem that Okuma America guys can not correct. Maybe it's only a software issue, but as far as Saturday at least one part file can no longer be made in this Multus.
The part has features being cut in T100, T200, BA=45 and all those features no longer line up. The crazy thing is Okuma was just here 2/17 through 2/20 tearing the machine apart and putting it back together trying to fix this axis problem. Although they found Velocite Oil collecting where it shouldn't, and didn't know what to do about it.

[DIFF OVER]

I have spoken with Larry several times. Had lunch with him at the PIT building. I have seen several customers send machines back. One customer had 1 E100 Captain. They got a P200 captain. No live tool, only 2 axis and LOTS of chatter. We sent so many techs in there. They sent it back and got all kinds of NASCAR tix and another Captain. The best part, they just got an NT. Still makes me pee myself.

Not sure what to think anymore. All builders are so desperate to move machines. March is Japan year end. And yet the builders and dists are not really that interested in being partners with shops. I have no clue what it will take for things to get better. Good luck to all.

One time i was talking with a service tech from a southern dealer. He made good points, and thoughts on why he felt that Okuma spent so much money on the THINC control, that iron got set aside. Over the last three years, the signs are there.

[FastMachining]

The Company I work for bought a Multus B400-W one month before I started working there. I went to training for the programming side of it and the operators got 2 weeks of training running it.
Starting in Sept 09' we have had nothing but trouble with this machine, starting with Overheating servo's, Tool Changer jamming and throwing tools out of the arm, Constant Turret out of Alignment Problems "At least once a week" and using ADMAC never knowing what angle to compensate the 2nd spindle to time Front and Backsides of the part.
Okuma from my past use to be a dependable machine, but NEVER AGAIN !!!
We had our service rep out and said we were a unusual case.

[budgieW]

You need to add a tool cleaning cycle to the toolchange code

I use M341, IGF can also use M341

with

OM341
VS88=VMTTL
IF [VTTLN[1] EQ VS88]NLP1
G20 HP=4
TC=01
M8
M869
M263
M175
G04 F4
M868
M262
M174
M9
NLP1 M321
RTS

As for ADMAC and the the 2 spindles. This is a machine setup issue not an ADMAC issue. This is controlled by a PARAMETER

1st-2nd spindle
No2 2nd spindle zero offset
Or use VSYOF=?????

I have not seen the problem that you speak off

[zooloader]

I agree, the spindles are timed by a parameter.
I can't recall where exactly it's buried.
Our Multus arrived having the No1 chuck jaws aligned and pointing down(C0), which was nice as we mill between both clamped chucks a lot.
Our Macturn arrived with each chuck (C0) at some random position. We aligned them ourselves.

I'm starting to think there is some very basic communication problem at Okuma HQ.
And probably a basic ATC design flaw as well.
I know Okuma have stated (several years ago!)that using a cleaning routine(M341) as part of the tool change cycle is a fix.
Why the hell do people(customers) in Australia, Europe, North America etc have to find this information through peer groups like CNCZone!?
Why isn't this made clear and set up ready to use, if needed, by the distributor?
It only reduces the frequency of dropped or jammed tools anyway.

[budgieW]

It comes down to machine setup, For some people the cycle time is everything for others machine running is everything.

The M341 cleaning cycle was supplied by OCJ to the local distributer. Does your machine have this cleaning cycle?

The toolchange arm spring problem can also be related to maintainance, How often do you clean the arm/Springs?