Novakon NM200 and experienced machinist/owners.

[newton009]

I'm considering purchasing an NM 200 and I am looking for feedback from experienced CNC machinists users/owners. Are there any out there who own or have worked on a NM 200 mill. Any feedback on the quality of the machine and its performance. I have read about some assembly and component quality issues, also about Novakon's great customer support. Any more input?

[g29cc]

So far for the 10 minutes I ran the machine today I am happy.

Only a slight bit of issues with assembly. Nothing crazy.

1. The holes for the coolant tank were wrong. It needs to be welded and a new hole drilled.

2. The 4th axis female receptacle was clocked the wrong way , it wouldn't allow you to connect the male side , it has to be turned 90 degrees.

3. The front of the splash guard needed to have two holes elongated so it would fit properly.

4. Spindle speed needs to be calibrated ( nothing big ).

That's it for now.

I am happy with the machine. I fit it through a 36 " wide door. So those who wonder, it can be done. I had a rigger company get the machine up on the stand because the hoist I had wouldn't lift it.

It took me about 3 hours to assemble the machine after it was on the stand. The first try I thought man, whats going on , it wont power up. But I forgot to flip the breaker ( lol ).

So everything pretty much out of the box seems to be working right now as of the few minutes I had it running today.

[kvom]

I've had mine for a few weeks now. I make small parts in ones and twos, mostly aluminum and brass, so perhaps not typical for job shop use.

So far my main issues have been spindle speed calibration (still waiting for Novamkon to come up with a procedure), and the fact that my eStop and limit switches do not work. I'm pretty sure that the interface board in the CD-100 is at fault as I have traced the eStop switch wiring all the way to the plug.

Since all my parts are held in the vise, I can do without the home/limit switches, although work offsets can't be saved across restarts (no ref to home). This is not a huge issue so far. I can save a part zero across restarts as long as I position the spindle before shutting down.

The spindle is quite high above the table, so I needed to raise my vise using a tilt table. This is working well. The new model will go down to 5" above the table, but that would still be too high for using small endmills (e.g., 1/6").

The machine is quite accurate, more than enough for my needs. My motor tuning is as supplied by Novakon. I'm sure the rapids could be amped up, but I don't really need it.

The spindle takes a long time to get up to speed and also to stop, so the dwell time in Mach is set to 12 seconds. Not an issue for me. I was told by Novakon that the motor should not be set lower than 1000 rpm; I have used it slower than that for milling some cast iron, but given that most of my material is aluminum and I am using smaller drills and endmills, high speed is the normal sertting. The speed, as indicated by the VFD panel, seems to be twice what is commanded by g-code. That's assuming that the VFD is configured to show spindle speed. I need to get a tachometer to see what the true speeds are vs. VFD and vs. Mach.

I didn't get the coolant or 4th axis. Given that the top of my vise is 10+" above the table I'm not sure the enclosure would be tall enough.

The CD-100 seems to be a well-built unit. With the cover off, all the components and wiring look very professional. No experience with the new model.

I didn't like the 220V plug that comes with the unit, as it allows only 14ga wire to be used. I prefer to use 12ga for 220V circuits.

Mounting the mill onto its cabinet can be challenging. I have an auto lift, so I could do it solo. Using an engine lift might be possible, but would take more than one person.

[g29cc]

So far my main issues have been spindle speed calibration (still waiting for Novamkon to come up with a procedure), and the fact that my eStop and limit switches do not work. I'm pretty sure that the interface board in the CD-100 is at fault as I have traced the eStop switch wiring all the way to the plug.

I am trying my estop now I didn't think of that yesterday. My limit switches do work though. Estop does work. Spindle takes forever to slow down. So its not really a "true" estop in my eyes. I didn't expect it to brake when I hit the button since the spindle takes forever to turn on and off.

The spindle takes a long time to get up to speed and also to stop, so the dwell time in Mach is set to 12 seconds. Not an issue for me. I was told by Novakon that the motor should not be set lower than 1000 rpm; I have used it slower than that for milling some cast iron, but given that most of my material is aluminum and I am using smaller drills and endmills, high speed is the normal sertting. The speed, as indicated by the VFD panel, seems to be twice what is commanded by g-code. That's assuming that the VFD is configured to show spindle speed. I need to get a tachometer to see what the true speeds are vs. VFD and vs. Mach.

I am not fond of that either.

I didn't get the coolant or 4th axis. Given that the top of my vise is 10+" above the table I'm not sure the enclosure would be tall enough.

I have both 4th axis and coolant table on mine. Lots of room from what I see, but I am not sure if being that high on the table will catch all the flood from spitting.

The CD-100 seems to be a well-built unit. With the cover off, all the components and wiring look very professional. No experience with the new model.

CD-100 does seem to be well built. I agree.

I didn't like the 220V plug that comes with the unit, as it allows only 14ga wire to be used. I prefer to use 12ga for 220V circuits.

I wasn't fond of the plug either. But it is only a 10 amp motor. So really 14 gauge being capable of 15 amp , it will be fine for its application. But it was hard to stuff the 14 gauge in there the way I would have liked to.

Mounting the mill onto its cabinet can be challenging. I have an auto lift, so I could do it solo. Using an engine lift might be possible, but would take more than one person.

I had a rigging company come and do mine. WELL WORTH THE MONEY. They have small fork trucks that can fit through 36" wide doors without a problem. Better to have them drop it and buy you a new one then you drop it and have to buy a new one. I haven't gotten my bill yet, but I am guessing around $250 or so give or take.

[gleas]

I don't have a 200 but these machines are all made in the same place in China. From my experience, you can get some degree of precision from them BUT,, don't expect it to arrive ready for prime time.

You will have to do an extensive check of the whole machine. By this I mean get out your indicator and check for wiggle or play on all the axis's. When I received my 135 none of the gibs were snugged up and i could move each axis an see VISIBLE play.

There are many more issues to consider but if your just a hobbyist and not planning to hold tight tolerances or make any serious money, it may be fine as is.

-Greg

[kvom]

Khai tells me that the machines are now all unpacked in Toronto and checked out there before being shipped. Mine was in pretty good shape out of the crate. The only hardware problem I had was missing the bolts to tie the mill to the cabinet.

The mach profile needed a bit of tweeking, but I think the current download is pretty close. My only mach profile issue now is the spindle tuning.

I do notice one peculiarity. If, for example, my X DRO reads .0001 and the g-code commands G0 X0, the DRO doesn't change.

[gleas]

Don't believe everything they tell you. My machine was sitting at their dock for a month before it was sent. I was told that they were waiting for John the owner to get back from China so he could personally check out my machine before they shipped it.

While I was disappointed about the delay, I felt better that it was going to be turn key when it got here. Actually I don't think they even opened the crate, because it was a basket case when it arrived. Took over a month to get it running properly. (Long story short)

-Greg

[g29cc]

Well I ll say the opposite on my machine. It came pretty much ready to roll.

It was shipped on Friday, arrived Monday morning.

[gleas]

g29cc

I'm glad you got the machine in good shape. That's the way it should be. I only wish I were as fortunate.

-Greg

[motoguy]

Hmm...interesting info. Tag, as I'm currently debating between the NM-200 V2 and the Tormach 1100.

[JoeBean]

Hmm...interesting info. Tag, as I'm currently debating between the NM-200 V2 and the Tormach 1100.

I saw your other thread and thought about posting but since I don't have possession of the machine I figured I wouldn't bother. But now I figure I might as well give you my thoughts on the matter...

We ordered the NM-200V2 recently as it addresses most if not all the issues I had with their V1 (spindle speeds [high & low], stepper power, s/w [I hate BobCAD - high pressure sales have been common, and they've been linked to Scientology which I personally have very strong views about], etc.) . We chose Novakon because:
1. They have a reputation of being very helpful (which I've found - I've sent a number of queries off to Khai and he's gotten back to me very quickly, even over the weekend, and usually within a few hours!)
2. They had a discount for educational use (my father, the actual owner - I'm helping him out - is a prof). Their price is quite good IMO - just go to turnkeymills (BOBCad again, I believe, so don't email them or they'll never leave you alone) and notice they're selling the same machine, only named 2300 mk2. And yes, it's the same - they sell on eBay and they actually had one listed before our ordering that conspicuously had Novakon's label on the front. Their price is way more expensive as well. Equipped as ours will be, they would have been $10k more with shipping.
3. Novakon has a very good reputation. I've only seen one real complaint about them (see above), and that's questionable IMO. My experience and that of many others has been positive. I think it's similar in that respect to Glacern - it's not a huge "big name" company, but their service is top-notch. I support Glacern because of their service, and I'm glad to have chosen Novakon for their service thus-far. If they keep it up I'm sure I'll continue to be a loyal customer.

The 2 other options considered were a Tormach, as you have considered, or a Haas/Sharp Minimill (or possibly a TM-1, but it would be tight).

The Tormach, though a nice machine (and receiving good reviews on PM from people I respect), would be quite a bit more expensive with less volume available. More importantly, I didn't find their assistance before the sale to be satisfactory. In fact I found the guy/gal I emailed ignorant (in both senses of the term). Their post-sale help may be better but I guess I'll never find out...

A new Haas or Sharp would be considerably more $$$, so that was out. But used they can be had in around $20k, and have the advantage of a true tool changer, greater rigidity, better controls, servos, etc. The problem is getting one that's not clapped out. I'm not able to go inspect the machine myself, and although eBay has had a few Haas's listed (actually, the same 3 or 4 kept getting relisted for the 3-4 months I was watching), I frankly don't trust the sellers. One of them seemed to be playing dumb with his listing, not including crucial info that would almost make you think "oh, he must be stupid and not know this machine, I can get a great deal!", till you realize he's had to have been asked the same question 100 times (I myself asked a couple), and he keeps relisting without updating the info! Frankly because the answer isn't flattering. A second dealer had very bad reviews on PM, so that was out. A problematic Haas, or any other big-name machine, can cost a fortune to repair unless you have the time/patience/ability to DIY, including possibly making the parts themselves.

So with all of that said, if I could have found a Haas or Sharp near me that I could inspect and verify it was in good shape, or if a dealer I trusted like procyon-machine listed one on eBay for a decent price, I would have probably encouraged my father to buy that despite the extra ~$5-10k. In fact he wanted to order months before the 200v2 came out but I discouraged him for this very reason (glad I did now or I'd be kicking myself when the v2 came out). That being said, it's most important to him that he get a good workable machine, which makes sense for him. If that wasn't important I guess he could have gotten an 80's-era machine and did a retrofit or some such, and saved a pile of money, but that's not what he wants. So Novakon it is, and I'm sure for him it will be perfect.

[motoguy]

JoeBean,

Thanks! That's basically where I'm at, as well. Tormach / Novakon / used VMC. Unfortunately, as you mentioned, the used VMC's are somewhat of a crap shoot. I don't have the ability to go flying across the country to inspect each machine I'm considering. I understand they are cheap right now, and I understand some GREAT deals are to be had...however, I'm just not familiar enough to trust that I can find one. Ultimately, I think the ability to make parts now will be a better long-term move than waiting until I find the "perfect" deal. Maybe I'll find that "perfect" used Haas tomorrow...but maybe it'll be 2 years.

I've "wheeled and dealed" in autos and motorcycles for years. I understand the difference between a "great deal" and "getting hosed" lies very much in the understanding and familiarity with the equipment. I just don't feel I'm at that level with VMC's, and I don't want to be the guy that gets hosed due to lack of info. I'm relatively new to this hardware, and I do not have an "shop floor" background.

Even though a Tormach / Novakon may not be the best machine out there (rigidity, steppers, no ATC, etc), and I may not be getting the best deal (paying for a new one), I currently feel that I'm better off being able to cut chips now on a functional machine (with support), vs spending another x months trying to figure out / rebuild a true VMC that I got a "good deal" on.

Don't get me wrong...if I could find a trusted source to say "That Haas is a great deal! I know the history, and it's in good shape!", I'd be all over it. Short of that happening, however, I think I'll probably be delegated to "overpaying" for an "underperforming hobby mill". It sounds like we are / were in remarkably similar positions, and making the same decisions for the same reasons.