Robotic arm tool changer?

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    Gold Member LeeWay's Avatar
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    Default Robotic arm tool changer?

    Just curious. Has anyone considered making a tool changer using a robotic arm?
    It seems to me that a small one might be mounted inside an enclosure and keep the tools up high instead of using a carousel type.
    The very same robot could remove and load finished parts using a hydraulic or pneumatic vise. Just starting a conversation and what if's here.

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    Lee


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    Default Re: Robotic arm tool changer?

    Lee,

    I fail to see any advantage, other than "Gee Whiz" value. It would certainly be more complex and far more expensive to build. The added degrees of freedom and mechanical complexity required of such an arm would make positioning more difficult and less precise without the use of expensive, zero-backlash components throughout. With TTS, it would be a living nightmare to get it working for more than 5 minutes.

    I also don't see how it could possibly save any space. Space is largely determined by the tools themselves, and the access/clearance required to pick and place them. A carousel is about the most efficient organization for a reasonable number of tools (up to 12-14). Beyond that, a chain configuration becomes much more attractive, with minimal added cost. The major advantage of either is that the "pickup" point is fixed, simplifying the mechanical design, where for a robotic arm, presumably with the tools in fixed locations (otherwise, why mess with a robotic arm at all?), each tool would be at a different location, requiring a MUCH greater range of motion on the arm.

    It is usually instructive to look at industrial solutions. There is not a single commercial CNC machine that I am aware of that has ever used a robotic arm. About the closest I've seen is the "basket" changers, like the Chiron ( ), which are fantastically complex, having been designed for absolute maximum performance (~1.5 second "chip-to-chip" time).

    BTW - If you look at my ATC, which is a conventional carousel arrangement, the tools ARE completely out of the way. The carousel is as high up and as far back as the machine enclosure allows, and is completely outside the "work envelope". The arm also tucks away under the head, completely out of the way. So, no advantage there that I can see.

    The time, cost and effort that goes into designing a truly robust ATC should not be under-estimated. Building my ATC was a real education for me. The first prototypes worked nearly well enough for my own use, but getting the design refined to the point that anyone could install and align it, and proving that it would be truly reliable long-term took nearly a year of intensive testing, many, many tens of thousands of toolchanges in testing, and dozens of minor design, component, and software/firmware changes. Even on a relatively simple ATC like mine, there are a huge number of things that can go wrong, many of which are quite surprising. If someone asked me to design a robotic arm system, I'd probably run out of the room screaming...

    Regards,
    Ray L.



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    Gold Member LeeWay's Avatar
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    Default Re: Robotic arm tool changer?

    Thanks, Ray.
    I know yours is out of the way and I also like the PDB. The fact that you can quickly change collets is an excellent feature. Makes installing a new collet or R8 tools a non issue.
    I also like the way the arm stores out of the way.
    I think I have about a year left to pay on the lease for the Pulsar and then it's our's. I will be keeping it and using it for some of our less needed parts, R&D etc.
    I will be getting something new or used, but it will need a PDB and tool changer.
    I have been considering the Servo Pulsar with your equipment on it. I am setup already with tooling and vises for that.
    I am also considering buying a small HAAS or perhaps a Trak 2OP. Both are fairly expensive, but with tool changers. Better accuracy and speed, though since I upgraded to Path Pilot, the Pulsar meets our needs. Parts are probably cheaper on the Pulsar as well. I would be looking at about $20K as opposed to at least double that for tooling on the other two mills.

    I mainly mentioned the robotic arm just so that it could possibly do double duty to change tools and swap parts. It would have to be strong and agile though. No doubt about that. I think it could live on the left rear outside the enclosure though where it would store tools and blanks to load and unload.

    Lee


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    Default Re: Robotic arm tool changer?

    Robotic arm tool changers:

    GMTK
    Fermat

    Just possibly out of your budget, but beautiful.



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    Gold Member LeeWay's Avatar
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    Default Re: Robotic arm tool changer?

    Nice videos.
    To be clear, I don't have a budget. Not really looking to implement something like this. Just wondering what difficulties or challenges a correctly sized arm might pose. There are many many little arm kits that you can get that are pretty cheap for educational purposes. There has to be arms available or possible to build with about a 2' elbow length I would think. Like Ray's arm on his ATC, a robot arm does not need to be made of cast iron to work. There are some larger arms that look like they were made using erector sets or similar. They look pretty light weight compared to the types in the videos that are castings. I have seen smaller versions of those too.
    I am also assuming that Arduino or something similar could be used to run one. Most of the used ones on Ebay come with the controllers. Most are too large for the purpose of this thread.

    I was just really curious if anyone had done one on a small scale.

    Really just kind of spoiled by the automated production we get from the lathe and was curious about what it might take to get the same kind of automation from a mill for production parts.

    Lee


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    Default Re: Robotic arm tool changer?

    The one ion this video looks like it might be about the right size, but probably double what Ray's costs. And you would still need a reliable PDB.



    Lee


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    Default Re: Robotic arm tool changer?

    Lee,

    From a technical standpoint, there is not a reason in the world it cannot be done, but it would be very expensive, as it would have to be built with considerable precision, using expensive components to get acceptable performance. I would bet the arm alone would cost several thousand dollars to build, using expensive servo motors, gearboxes, precision bearings, zero-backlash couplings, joints, and hinges, etc. A small amount of backlash in a single joint or coupling could result in a huge positional uncertainty at the end of the arm. One of the biggest challenges I faced on my ATC was getting good performance using reasonably-priced components. With powerful servo motors and zero-backlash gearboxes, the whole system would have been vastly easier to build, but it also would have cost so much nobody would ever buy it, as the component cost would have been roughly 4X what it is now.

    Regards,
    Ray L.



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    Default Re: Robotic arm tool changer?

    Lee, have you seen this video. Tormach Auto Loader, something like this might be less expensive to make and easier to make.





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    Default Re: Robotic arm tool changer?

    Thanks, Guys.
    I had not seen that video. That is pretty cool. Similar to what I had in mind, but a lot less complicated. It does have some drawbacks. How is that vice operated? Is that a screw type cylinder? How would I open it for other parts if not? Blank holder would have to be off the table too. It needs to hold more parts than that for some parts. That is easy enough to figure out though.
    Table real estate, but if I have my parts automated, I would no longer need twin double vises like I use now. If it is working all by itself like the lathe does, then a single part at a time would work fine. A shield of some kind could be used to protect the blanks. Even incorporate an air blast on the clamp for before and after on the vise jaws as well as before pickup. The finished parts could just get dropped on a ramp that would direct them into the chip pan.
    That would operate much faster on the Pulsar as well. I think mine is set about 300 IPM now.
    Now just need the ATC and PDB.

    I have been looking for an arduino project to start with and that was one of the reasons I though about the robot arms. I need to become more familiar with Arduino. I would like to use Arduino to finish my spring winder machine, but I am just not familiar enough with how they are programmed and manipulated. A little kit would be helpful there I think as well as provide some experience a bit latter for our Grand daughter. She is 19 months old and operates our Ipad better than we do.

    Lee


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    Default Re: Robotic arm tool changer?

    Lee, another thought is a gantry style loader. You have experience making cnc routers so this would likely be the easiest to make. Fitting a gantry style loader inside your Pulsar's enclosure would be another story. Just food for thought.

    Steve



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    Default Re: Robotic arm tool changer?

    I design Fanuc robots into various applications at work and they could certainly perform the task, but as others have state, it would be expensive. To give you an idea, I just purchased a 17 year old used one for $8500 and still had to do some minor repairs.



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    Default Re: Robotic arm tool changer?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeWay View Post
    Thanks, Guys.
    I had not seen that video. That is pretty cool. Similar to what I had in mind, but a lot less complicated. It does have some drawbacks. How is that vice operated? Is that a screw type cylinder? How would I open it for other parts if not? Blank holder would have to be off the table too. It needs to hold more parts than that for some parts. That is easy enough to figure out though.
    Table real estate, but if I have my parts automated, I would no longer need twin double vises like I use now. If it is working all by itself like the lathe does, then a single part at a time would work fine. A shield of some kind could be used to protect the blanks. Even incorporate an air blast on the clamp for before and after on the vise jaws as well as before pickup. The finished parts could just get dropped on a ramp that would direct them into the chip pan.
    That would operate much faster on the Pulsar as well. I think mine is set about 300 IPM now.
    Now just need the ATC and PDB.

    I have been looking for an arduino project to start with and that was one of the reasons I though about the robot arms. I need to become more familiar with Arduino. I would like to use Arduino to finish my spring winder machine, but I am just not familiar enough with how they are programmed and manipulated. A little kit would be helpful there I think as well as provide some experience a bit latter for our Grand daughter. She is 19 months old and operates our Ipad better than we do.
    I think automating a standard vise would be difficult. To auto-lock, you'd really want to start with a quick-release vise like the Orange (which is $$$$, then use an air-operated hydraulic lock). Or, you could use a motor, with a high-ratio gearbox, like I do on my PDBs, which can easily generate 30+ foot-pounds of torque. I think the bigger problem would be getting good Z positioning, without some means of forcing the blank firmly down while the vise is tightened. Nothing beats a few solid whacks with a dead-blow hammer.

    BTW - When starting with Arduino, I'd suggest starting with a Due or Zero, so you don't ever have to worry about running out of bandwidth or memory. They're only a few $ more. Also, you could start with an existing CNC controller, like Grbl. Odds are it will do a large portion of what you'd need right out of the box. As far as becoming familiar with Arduino, it's just plain old c/c++. Skip the dorky Arduino IDE, and download Microsoft Visual Studio 2015 (for free), and get a copy of the Visual Micro plug-in, and you can do all your development using Visual Studio.

    Regards,
    Ray L.



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    Default Re: Robotic arm tool changer?

    Thanks, Guys.
    I have considered buying used as well, but still faced with the size issue to start with. They are all rather large. Even the smaller ones. There does not seem to be any middle of the road between the tiny size and strength Arduino based ones and full on industrial models. I think I would need a small, but robust one to do it well.
    Arduino may not even be capable of operating the tools on the spring winder I am working on. It only uses .031" SS wire, but it does take some torque to do it right.
    I think I would need something with a little more power capability.

    As I mentioned, even with a robot arm, I would still need the PDB and the automated vise or chuck. That would be on top of the cost of the arm and controller. The only good thing about investing in an arm would be that it could work on different machines if I changed mills later on. Maybe.
    So I have plenty of time to think about it. Really had more questions than answers about it. I will continue to research it though. If I see something with a 2' elbow length, then that is the ball park.
    Anyone seen any scalable plans for the real McCoy?
    They do not look all that difficult to build in the size I am talking about.

    Lee


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    Default Re: Robotic arm tool changer?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeWay View Post
    Arduino may not even be capable of operating the tools on the spring winder I am working on. It only uses .031" SS wire, but it does take some torque to do it right. I think I would need something with a little more power capability.
    That makes no sense at all.... The Arduino has absolutely nothing to do with how much power or torque the machine it controls is capable of. It is simply a controller, and operates entirely at logic levels. My PDB uses a $2 Arduino to control the PDB motor, which generates 30+ ft-lbs of torque. The one on the ATC controls three servo motors, which all have a very high torque capability.

    Regards,
    Ray L.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeWay View Post
    Arduino may not even be capable of operating the tools on the spring winder I am working on. It only uses .031" SS wire, but it does take some torque to do it right. I think I would need something with a little more power capability.
    That makes no sense at all.... The Arduino has absolutely nothing to do with how much power or torque the machine it controls is capable of. It is simply a controller, and operates entirely at logic levels. My PDB uses a $2 Arduino to control the PDB motor, which generates 30+ ft-lbs of torque. The one on the ATC controls three servo motors, which all have a very high torque capability.

    A cheap robotic arm won't be good, and a good robotic arm won't be cheap...

    Regards,
    Ray L.



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    Default Re: Robotic arm tool changer?

    BTW - I find the best way to speed up production is dedicated multi-part fixtures. They make machining the parts easier and more accurate, and let the machine run far longer without human intervention. When doing volume production, it more often than not beats the he11 out of multiple vises.

    Regards,
    Ray L.



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    Default Re: Robotic arm tool changer?

    Just proves how little I know about Arduino.
    I really knew it was logic level stuff, but could not get past thinking about it like a drive.

    I did find some smaller robots, BTW.
    https://www.universal-robots.com/products/

    So take the UR3 size on that page. That would probably be an ideal size for a project like this one. Would Arduino handle the logic side of those drivers and motors?

    Lee


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    Default Re: Robotic arm tool changer?

    There are a few videos on Youtube of the Universal Robot loading parts into CNC mills. I like the mobility of those arms. Any idea on the cost of the UR3?



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    Default Re: Robotic arm tool changer?

    I know you are right about the parts on a tool plate, Ray. It's not really an area that is slowing us down that much. The bottlenecks happen elsewhere. It is from a lack of bodies. My third employee quit about 6 weeks ago and i can't just hire anyone. Half of the assembly and shipping takes place in our Home. That was what she was doing.

    Steve, I have no idea about the cost on it.
    Here is another video.


    Looks like they use it to assemble itself.

    As a side note, tyhe company is based out of Odense Denmark.
    That happens to be where I got married the first time. Nice town.

    Lee


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    Default Re: Robotic arm tool changer?

    Here is a small one for $13,000.00.
    New Generation Six Axis Mitsubishi Movemaster Robot Arm RV-3AL

    Wayyyyoutta the ball park.

    Lee


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    Default Re: Robotic arm tool changer?

    Here is an interesting assembly manual for a little robot arm.

    http://www.zortrax.com/downloads/ROBOTIC_MANUAL.pdf

    Lee


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