Re: If only Novakon had a better controller...
Ray it will depend on HOW PP is integrated into LinuxCNC. If they did the correct option THEN they have every right to withhold PP as it is classed as a seperate application and is NOT considered part of LinuxCNC and it NOT under teh GPL license.
(;-) TP
Re: If only Novakon had a better controller...
Well, missed the boat again! Wanted to try PP but procrastinated on the purchase for a "later project". Decided today after scanning this thread to get off my butt so I ordered PP software from Tormach! I received a message from their purchasing dept and asked for the serial number of my machine! Well, they just refunded my purchase price!
Back to Mach I guess.
Bill
billyjack
Helicopter def. = Bunch of spare parts flying in close formation! USAF 1974 ;>)
Re: If only Novakon had a better controller...
hmmm.Originally Posted by wfr8577
call siemens directly. my quote on a complete 4 axis the 828d basic (240 series) was not much different than that listed price. (the 808 series didnt have csa approval yet so there was no price. the 840d, as seen on high end machines, is A LOT more money.)
they have good service, and quite good warranties, 2 or 3 years with onsite service, of course, im in toronto and so are they, so that may vary for other locations. lots of online video tutorials, as well as a free training emulator.
you probably want the 808d advanced if you did go for it btw. digital closed loop control, can handle a 4th axis, and has a few other features. the regular 808d is "open loop step and direction" like mach or linux, relying on the servo drives to close the loop. on the other hand the base 808d can use any step and direction non siemens drives though, which might be useful. im fairly certain they will not "support" 3rd party drives however.
that said. yes, its still quite alot of money when tacked onto a machine thats under 10k. it is also important to note that the drives are 400v 3 phase ONLY. they offer no 220v drives for anything except the high end control models.
i was tempted to go siemens on my novakon nm145 (its being rebuilt with linear rails and ATC right now) but i have a beckhoff ethercat system lying about as well along with linear scales and many other bits an bobs, and am going to try and interface that into linux cnc before i spend any more money. i that turns out to be a fail, i might get an 828d basic.
Re: If only Novakon had a better controller...
Would love to learn more about the ATC and linear rails rebuild. Are you using Ray's ATC?
Steve
Re: If only Novakon had a better controller...
no.
heres how it was before xmas:
the spindle is 4.7kw, 24000rpm iso30, ceramic bearings with an air release. it was intended for my router, but it turned out to be much too large and heavy. so im remaking the head of the novakon to clamp onto the nose, which is 110mm diam, 100mm long.
the only drawback to this spindle in a mill, is that its not well sealed for flood coolant. thats fine for me though as i use a mister and 99% of what i cut is aluminium. the air purge should keep everything out.
this is on the mill table right now: i need to order in a longer cutter to finish it up and then bore it to 110mm.
im filling the base, column, and head with an epoxy granite type mix, to add some damping and mass. im also constructing an enclosure and covers for it from some sheet steel i have in the shop. but thats a bit of a ways off. after i finish the spindle head, the next thing to do is the XY and Z saddles and ball nut and motor mounts (wont me nema34 anymore). basically i need to get it in a state where it moves, then ill be working on the linux / ethercat control for a while. theres no timeline for any of this. i just poke at it when i have time - and constantly change my mind about the details, haha
Re: If only Novakon had a better controller...
At this point, I am leaning towards the Novakon with LinuxCNC. I am going to put it on my little G0704 and see how well I like it before making any decisions.
Re: If only Novakon had a better controller...
so, the 808d is still not approved for canada. bah.
Re: If only Novakon had a better controller...
That is a quite a rebuild you are doing there!
Steve
Re: If only Novakon had a better controller...
indeed.
its something i wanted to do for a long time, but it made no sense to pay someone to machine the castings. but i have a massive manual mill now, so theres no reason not to
Re: If only Novakon had a better controller...
FYI for everyone that is interested in Path Pilot as an alternative to Mach3, Tormach will sell you the installation disk for a non-Tormach install. It cost $115. They won't sell you the Mesa card either, which is no big deal, but I asked, and they wouldn't. For folks saying that it's GPL and it should be free that's not quite how GPL works. They are required to release source code that are derivative works of previously GPL released software. It seems on the surface that the PathPilot interface is additional software package that Tormach has created and is added on top of the LinuxCNC distribution. If that's true, and is not compiled as a kernel module, or, otherwise required altering any pre-existing GPL software they are well within their right to not release the additional software they created for their specific use case free of cost or other encumbrances. Even if they did alter packages in the LinuxCNC distribution to work properly with their standalone interface, they would only have to release the changes to the GPL packages that they altered that make up LinuxCNC (or other GPL software packages). I can provide some other real world examples of this. Oracle Databases run on a variety of operating systems including Linux. Oracle DB licensing is about the most expensive piece of software on the planet. However, they do not alter the distributions that it runs on (Mostly red hat or other red hat clones), and therefore are not required to provide source code or binaries with the distribution. There are lots of other examples I could provide as well, such as Tivo. Tivo is required to and releases the source code for the Linux Kernel that their DVR boxes run on. That's it. They aren't required to release their software for the user interface, and other software packages running on the box because they wrote it themselves. If someone was that interested in finding out they could do a diff on the two distributions and find out what is different. To me, $115 is a rounding error at this point for all the gear I have purchased, and I don't even have the mill in my possession yet.
Re: If only Novakon had a better controller...
Most of the core things tormach paid to have done, are actually already in the regular linux - as in, that code is released, and if you just get linux cnc 2.7, it should have the exact same core functionality.
The rest is interface work (and of course, what people really want). but as you say, it may not use gpl linux cnc code in a way that requires them to give it out for free. noone has ever been completely clear on that though. i dont recall tormach ever officially stating its theirs alone and not gpl. i dont recall the linux cnc curators demanding it be released either. only alot of user specualtion.
Re: If only Novakon had a better controller...
Anyone got a way how to get Pathpilot for a non Tormach user? Or is it really not possible anymore?
Re: If only Novakon had a better controller...
Yes, Call them (Tormach). I ordered mine not that long ago. I do not own a Tormach, and they sold me a copy. See post 30 for more detail.
Re: If only Novakon had a better controller...
One way to get it free is to buy a 440. Then you will have a disk to use for something else.
Lee
Re: If only Novakon had a better controller...
i just cant get myself to buy a 440. been thinking about it for some time. i have no operating machine at this moment, and a bunch of small prototypes to do... but then ill literally turn around and get rid of it in 2 months. sigh.One way to get it free is to buy a 440. Then you will have a disk to use for something else.
what i really need is a brother speedio.... and a nakamura twin spindle millturn.... and a winning lottery ticket....
:P
oh, in case anyone is interested for real, the siemens 828d kit is only a hair more money than that 808d kit posted if you call siemens direct. ive decided its a bit more than i want to spend on my novakon, considering i already own a mesa kit and a beckhoff ethercat kit with nice steppers. but for someone else, it could be a good option to make the torus pro, really "pro". the 828 has a gazzilion more features than the 808, and usually comes with machines in the 50-90k range.
That control looks nice. How much ?
Re: If only Novakon had a better controller...
i cant say online, and mines in canadian dollars from the canadian branch, but if you look at that link of the 808d posted earlier - its only maybe 10-15% more money.
Re: If only Novakon had a better controller...
I might consider the 440 if it had a Novakon stand and coolant system with rigid tapping.
I am spoiled now.
The machine itself looks capable enough for a small machine, but has zero features that I value.
er other than Path Pilot.
Lee
Re: If only Novakon had a better controller...
yeah, my only thoughts for it is "cheap thing that i can plug in and use"I might consider the 440 if it had a Novakon stand and coolant system with rigid tapping.
I am spoiled now.
The machine itself looks capable enough for a small machine, but has zero features that I value.
er other than Path Pilot.
but actually, add in all the bits, its not too cheap. still over 10k cdn. so it still requires some serious consideration.
theres a small brother tapping center on ebay for $5000 as well... kinda old and in bad shape of course, but still in that hobby diy price area, you kinda sit there and go hmmm.
right now im going hmmmm... how am i going to get 25 of these made for a fair price?
its probably getting farmed out to someone with a dual spindle lathe, as i dont think my novakon remakening will be done fast enough, and i dont think a machine like the 440 is going to do a precise enough job, fast enough, to make it cost effective.
Ya, I've been eye balling those brothers as well.one with a 4th axis would be great for that part. Or a lathe with a sub spindle, but that's going to get pricey. What's the material? .yeah, my only thoughts for it is "cheap thing that i can plug in and use"
but actually, add in all the bits, its not too cheap. still over 10k cdn. so it still requires some serious consideration.
theres a small brother tapping center on ebay for $5000 as well... kinda old and in bad shape of course, but still in that hobby diy price area, you kinda sit there and go hmmm.
right now im going hmmmm... how am i going to get 25 of these made for a fair price?
its probably getting farmed out to someone with a dual spindle lathe, as i dont think my novakon remakening will be done fast enough, and i dont think a machine like the 440 is going to do a precise enough job, fast enough, to make it cost effective.
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