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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    A quick update, the seals took an extra day or two to get to me. I have not had time to reassemble the bearing blocks and get them installed. But that is the plan for tonight. However I did get a chance to install the seals and give them a dry fit check.

    The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-2014-07-16-20-37-34-jpg

    In the picture above you can see 2 cover/shield plates that have been machined. To do this all I did was open up the 30mm through hole to 38mm on one side. These plates start off 12mm thick with a 4mm groove machined right in the middle for the felt packing. This groove is about 40mm in diameter. So after modifying them I only have a 4mm section at 38mm and a 4 mm section at 40mm that does not hold the seal. Then if you do the math the seals I used are 7mm thick, so I am actually only holding on 3mm of the outside diameter. But So far that seems to be more than enough. Then there are 2 cover plates with the seals installed and then a picture of the front and back of the seals I bought.

    The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-cover-plate-unmodified-pngThe order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-cover-plate-modified-png
    Here are a couple pictures of the solid models, before and after modifying them. If you look closely at the modified part you will notice the addition of 2 small holes. These are 2 1/8" dowel pin holes used to locate the cover plate concentric with the bearing bore. While these are not necessary I decided to add them to ensure the seals had the best possible chance of sealing. On the matching bearing blocks I indicated in the bore of each bearing and then drilled the dowel pin holes. My main concern that lead me to do with is that the tolerance on the location of the 2 counter bored holes that mount the cover plate are quite lose to say the least. Additionally instead of using a real counter bore these holes are counter borded with a drill but. So the remaining cone shape from the drill tip will try to center its self on base of the mating screw/bolt. This may drive the cover plate off of concentric with the shaft.



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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    Thanks!!

    Don't have to be too bright to be me :)
    bluehandsvideo on youtube


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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    Last night was a BAD night in the little garage of horrors. I repacked the angular contact bearings and after pressing the bearing block onto the Y axis ballscrew I ended up with some notchy-ness in the brand new bearings. But it is very small and minor so I am leaving them in for now. I will order some more bearings and plan on replacing them in the future. The X axis which is using recycled factory bearings (the 2 good ones) is perfect, figures. So I get the whole thing put back together and decided to check the tuning on the Z axis. I am still getting a little resonance when it is first enabled but it is moving very well. For some stupid reason I decided to try tweaking the acceleration rate and see what it can do. Something went haywire, the Z axis accelerated at what is close 1000 in/sec/sec up to a speed of a couple hundred inches a minute but it seems it forgot to stop. As it turns out the mechanical stop was no match for the runaway headstock as it blew through that pushing it out of the way and finally stopped moving up when the, already weak, Z xis coupler snapped in half. I am glad the coupler broke but is now is a big pain in the rear. For some reason TECO made the shaft of the 1kw motor 22mm, which is not a standard size for servo couplers. To add to the difficulty the Z axis motor mount on the Novakon is very narrow. The coupler I was using was modified to work and the new one I ordered this morning will have to be too.

    So now onto the fun stuff (for everybody but me).
    The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-2014-07-18-08-47-08-jpgThe order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-2014-07-17-21-10-56-jpgThe order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-2014-07-17-21-06-26-jpg

    So this weekend I am going to start tearing down the Z axis and start prepping the parts to be repainted (since I have a couple days of downtime). I was going to wait a couple weeks to do that. While I have it apart I will recheck the ballscrew. Additionally I will be wiring in a remote E-Stop button to keep next to the computer.

    -Dan



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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    Dan. You may want to put a couple of limit switches wired directly to the drives limit inputs for safety. get some with normal open and closed contacts and you can use them for homing switches as well. I have found that some times my reactions are not quick enough for the estop . That is until some one comes out with a safety switch that reacts to my sphincter muscle.



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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    Hi, just an observation regarding the ball race on the X axis ball screw non drive end.......you said that it was in place of the cast iron bearing.......the cast iron bearing only does a radial support job and allows the screw to move axially as it expands and contracts ever so slightly etc.

    Putting a ball race in that location means you need to have the ball race either sliding on the screw or in the housing, which can lead to some wear to the screw shaft or the housing if any in that position as the bearing is a rigid entity and has no allowance in itself to move axially.

    I think you would be best served to fit a plain roller bearing in that position as it will enable the screw to be flexible for axial expansion and contraction purposes even though it is fixed by the angular contacts at the drive end......the undriven end does need to be free to move end wise if only ever so slightly.

    The plain cast iron plain bearing allows the screw to be retained for radial forces but move axially etc.......you can't have both ends rigidly held or you get mechanical wear problems or at worst a flexing of the screw.

    You still need to have a seal both sides of the roller bearing (same as the ball race) to keep the swarf etc out.

    The roller bearing can then be fixed in the housing and also fixed to the screw shaft as it will have movement axially in itself.
    Ian.



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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by powerr View Post
    .......safety switch that reacts to my sphincter muscle.
    LOL!! Hilarious!!! ......but(t) usefull!

    Don't have to be too bright to be me :)
    bluehandsvideo on youtube


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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by powerr View Post
    Dan. You may want to put a couple of limit switches wired directly to the drives limit inputs for safety. get some with normal open and closed contacts and you can use them for homing switches as well. I have found that some times my reactions are not quick enough for the estop . That is until some one comes out with a safety switch that reacts to my sphincter muscle.
    Yeah, I will be looking into that. It is something I was entertaining bot for some reason I had convinced myself that the soft limits would be an acceptable solution. But looking back on things I am fairly confident that the problem was not the motion controller but the servo amplifier, and at that it was my fault for setting things at the max and not allowing some cushion in settings. I am only speculating but I think truly what happened was a digital value went one unit over its max memory location size so it rolled over to a very large negative number and got stuck.


    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    Hi, just an observation regarding the ball race on the X axis ball screw non drive end.......you said that it was in place of the cast iron bearing.......the cast iron bearing only does a radial support job and allows the screw to move axially as it expands and contracts ever so slightly etc.

    Putting a ball race in that location means you need to have the ball race either sliding on the screw or in the housing, which can lead to some wear to the screw shaft or the housing if any in that position as the bearing is a rigid entity and has no allowance in itself to move axially.

    I think you would be best served to fit a plain roller bearing in that position as it will enable the screw to be flexible for axial expansion and contraction purposes even though it is fixed by the angular contacts at the drive end......the undriven end does need to be free to move end wise if only ever so slightly.

    The plain cast iron plain bearing allows the screw to be retained for radial forces but move axially etc.......you can't have both ends rigidly held or you get mechanical wear problems or at worst a flexing of the screw.

    You still need to have a seal both sides of the roller bearing (same as the ball race) to keep the swarf etc out.

    The roller bearing can then be fixed in the housing and also fixed to the screw shaft as it will have movement axially in itself.
    Ian.
    You are right, the floating end of the ball screw needs to be able to allow the ball screw to grow or shrink axially. A plain bearing (bushing) or a needle roller bearing would be an idea candidate for a application like this. But there is a problem with using a needle roller bearing, proper design would mandate that the surface the needle rollers ride on be hardened. In an ideal world there would be basically no radial load on the shaft/needle bearing, but as soon as "ideal" goes out the window you now have hardened rollers on a much softer shaft and the metal of the shaft starts getting displaced. When I decided I wanted to change from the cast iron bushing I looked at what was offered commercially for ballscrew bearing blocks and everything was a simple radial ball bearing on the floating end. From what I found the floating end is designed to be a close slip fit inside the inner race of the ball bearing. The way the bearings fit right now on my machine are a little snug for my liking and I am anticipating going back and running some fine sandpaper over the end of the ballscrew, but by no means are they a hard press fit into place.

    Something interesting I learned a couple months back, commercial/industrial machine tools have tension-ed ballscrews. They place 1 or a duplex pair of angular contact bearings at either end of he ball screw and stretch it a bit. This maintains the pitch of the ball screw as it heats up. When it is cold it is stretched a small amount. as it heats up the most that should happen is the ball screw grows to the point it is under 0 tension. But the length remains the same, only the amount of tension in the ballscrew changes.

    -Dan



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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by engnerdan View Post
    ...soft limits would be an acceptable solution.
    Soft limits are great when everything works as planned. The big Oh Crap moments happen when things DON'T go as planned. I would ALWAYS recommend having hard limits set up for "emergencies" - even if all day-to-day activities happen within the boundaries of soft limits. It's insurance against Murphy...

    CAD, CAM, Scanning, Modelling, Machining...


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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    Hey Dan;
    Been following your thread in anticipation of learning more about my Pro. Thanks for posting.
    I do have a question for the general Novakon gang and hope you don't mind me squeezing it in here since it's on topic. Is there an existing pro thread where the fabrication and installation of hard limits has been covered to give us a hint of the task involved. I seem to recall it being mentioned before but can't remember who addressed it. I could use the forum search engine, but I'm assuming that the bulk of the pro drivers are following your thread and will share any information without my having to dig through hundreds of non-related posts. Again, thanks for sharing.
    Bill

    billyjack
    Helicopter def. = Bunch of spare parts flying in close formation! USAF 1974 ;>)


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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    Hi Dan, I agree with you, the slip fit for a deep groove sealed bearing, on the spindle end or in a housing that is not really under that much pressure can do the job simply and completely as the radial bearing in that set-up would be a sealed one and so completely "weather" proof......the bearing would also need to have end clearance in the housing, a couple of thou would be sufficient, to achieve the end migration due to temperature differentials..

    A needle bearing would only complicate the situation as regards to needing the screw hardened or having a hardened sleeve for the needles to run on and separate seals etc.....more complication.

    Actually, I said a roller bearing, not a needle bearing, as the roller bearing can be firmly mounted in a housing and still allow the inner race and rollers to move axially in the outer race.

    A roller bearing would occupy the same space as a ball race, but it has rollers not balls and can move axially as it's not constrained like a ball race.

    I see you have the Z axis with linear rails only......I'd have gone the whole hog and done the X and Y axes too......more work, but oh so very cool......linear rails are just that much freer in their movements as opposed to dovetails that need to be either slack or too tight to maintain the fit.

    That head casting must weigh a ton........I think it could be cast in aluminium as all it does is to hold the spindle out from the column and let it ride up and down on the rails........no need to have cast iron as in a dovetail set-up where the cast iron acts as the bearing slide face.

    The Z axis is one area where you don't need to have a large mass moving up and down when you do drilling in a peck cycle.
    Ian.



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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by engnerdan View Post

    I forgot to add an update on the Yaskawa spindle motor that I was struggling with. I took the motor down to my friends machine shop this weekend and hooked it up to an unused 208 3 phase disconnect. When I flipped it on the motor came right up to speed and seem to be running at about 1500 RPM like it should. But when I looked down at the clamp on amp meter I had placed on one of the lines to the motor I got scared. The meter was reading 175 amps, I snapped the disconnect off as fast as I could. I was going to test the current draw on each leg of the motor but when I tried the second one it did nothing, a quick check of the breaker and I found it had tripped (30 amp). I decided at this point to call it quits and just pack it up. Now I am hoping the seller I bought it from does not give me too hard of a time.
    The Yaskawa Spindle motor you have has to be wired correctly along with the Encoder it has, I have some new ones that size & higher Hp that have never been run, the VFD has to be able to use the Encoder feed back before you can run these motors, You may have done some serious damage to it, trying to run it like you have Plus it is only 200V

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    The Yaskawa Spindle motor you have has to be wired correctly along with the Encoder it has, I have some new ones that size & higher Hp that have never been run, the VFD has to be able to use the Encoder feed back before you can run these motors, You may have done some serious damage to it, trying to run it like you have Plus it is only 200V
    Thanks for the info but I think we have different motors or different types of drives. The motor I had I checked the documentation and had called Yaskawa to verify it would work. I think what you were saying about needing the encoder feedback is correct for the drives that originally came out with that motor. The date codes stamped inside the motor I had was 1988. I have a feeling that the drive technology at that time needed the encoder feedback to work correctly. Or the drives Yaskawa originally used were actually servo drives and needed the encoder for commutation.

    There is a gentleman on one of the other CNC/machining forums running basically the same setup (standard VFD and that motor). Ultimately the motor was nothing more than an 1500 RPM AC induction motor that could be cranked up to 266 HZ. The problem I had was the motor was bad, it had been through a flood and had shorted windings even before I had it. As for the voltage 208 is within +/- 5% of the name plate voltage and it was only connected for a second. But all that is a mute point as the motor went back to the seller and I am just going to use the 6000 RPM spindle motor that came with my mill for now. I would like to find a 3-5 HP 8,000-10,000 RPM AC induction motor but that will just end up putting more weight on my Z axis and will most likely be taller. I am already at the limit vertically in my garage, to move my mill I have to disconnect the power cables to the head.

    -Dan



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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    engnerdan

    I have the same motors,I have never tried to run one not connected to the correct drive, as the encoder controls the speed of the motor, this is the normal wiring for that motor, I'm sure they can be run with other VFD drives, the Yaskawa drive for these motors is a VFD just has all the bell/whistles in them for CNC machines use, they are almost the same as any VFD drives you get now, but are much more advanced

    Baldor have a 6,000 RPM motor in there wash down series, & have run them up to 8,000

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-spindle-motor-wiring-png  
    Mactec54


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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    Mactec I have been reading along and see you mention a 6000 rpm baldor washdown motor. I have searched there site and all the ones I see are rated at 1800 rpm. Do you have a link to one of the 6000 rpm motors. I have been trying to find something in the speed range but have had no luck.

    Thanks
    Ben

    Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk



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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by bhurts View Post
    Mactec I have been reading along and see you mention a 6000 rpm baldor washdown motor. I have searched there site and all the ones I see are rated at 1800 rpm. Do you have a link to one of the 6000 rpm motors. I have been trying to find something in the speed range but have had no luck.
    These motors are shown in the spec at 1760 RPM motor & 3475 RPM motor,they are also Inverter Duty

    The 3475 RPM motor set at 120Hz in the VFD will give you just over 6,000RPM, sometimes you can find them on Ebay

    They don't say this in any of there specs. but if you asked a tec, he will be able to verify this, if you are unsure of what motor to get, some of the other motor manufacturers have motors like this as well

    The main thing is Inverter Duty, Which is Designed to run with a VFD Drive, the Inverter Duty motor can go higher than the 120Hz but that is up to you the end user, this is a safe number

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    Thanks Mactec that gives me a direction to run in.

    Ben

    Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk



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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    bhurts

    Another thing to look for on these motors is the Rotor Grounding, Baldor have some of the motors already fitted with Rotor Grounding, Having the Rotor Grounding gives the motor Bearings a normal life, without the rotor Grounding, when using a VFD You will have a much shorter Bearing life

    I just found some specs. that they never used to have on these motors, they have them listed 1750 to 6,000 RPM

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-baldor-motors-jpg  
    Mactec54


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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    engnerdan

    I have the same motors,I have never tried to run one not connected to the correct drive, as the encoder controls the speed of the motor, this is the normal wiring for that motor, I'm sure they can be run with other VFD drives, the Yaskawa drive for these motors is a VFD just has all the bell/whistles in them for CNC machines use, they are almost the same as any VFD drives you get now, but are much more advanced

    Baldor have a 6,000 RPM motor in there wash down series, & have run them up to 8,000
    The Yaskawa spindle motors are nothing more then regular 3 phase induction motors (inverter duty) that have been designed/balanced to spin 6000,8000,10000,12000 RPM's. The encoder is there for feedback. Much the same as the inverter duty motor automation direct sells with encoders installed. That is not saying that the drive pictured in your attachment does not require the encoder (resolver in this case). But if you connect one of these motors to a standard VFD (voltage and ratings matching) it will run at what ever RPM is proportional to the frequency ((Number of Poles*RPM)/120 = Frequency). So in the case of the 8000 RPM 200 volt motor I had I set the bus voltage to 200 volts (but 220 would have been ok as long as it is not run at 100% load) and the max frequency to 267Hz. One thing to note is the amperage ratings on the name plate of the motor, they are WAY high for the rated horse power. In fact if you compare them to other motors of the sale HP they are nearly 2 times higher. What I have come to realize after pouring over many charts and tables in Yaskawa motor documents is that those are overload ratings. I think it was a 175% for 1 minute rating. Basically the motor can be nearly stalled (still turning some) and draw the amps stamped on the name plate for up to 1 minute without burning up or being damaged.

    The advantage of the "spindle" motors is that they typically have been designed to give to output their rated power (wattage) over a wider range then a standard motor. Inverter duty motors do this too, typically to a smaller range. For instance the Yaskawa 3/5 HP motor I had at the beginning of this thread, it was rated for a full 2.2kw output from 1800-8000 RPM. Below 1800 RPM the power output (measured at the motor shaft) dropped off. With most "inverter duty" motors I have looked at they seem to put out the nameplate rated power from 1-2 times the rated frequency, so 1800-3600 RPM. If you push then past the rated 2 times rated frequency they tend to drop off in output power.

    I wish there were more motors offered that are rated to the higher speeds. I would really like a spindle speed of 8,000 or 10,000 RPM (with 1:1 drive ratio) and I am ok with the power output tapering off some at those highest of speeds. I am fine with an inverter duty motor running at 2 times its name plate speed or a bit more. But I will not push a 1,800 RPM motor to 8000 RPM without knowing it was designed to take that kind of speed.

    The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-power-output-png



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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    So back to my mill project

    Since trying to launch the headstock into orbit last week I have not made any progress towards making chips. I did get my new servo coupler for the Z axis Monday and machined it yesterday. But being I am still waiting on parts for the spindle motor pulley. So I am not going to rush putting the head back together and I will use this time to tear the head down and repaint it. With all the work I have done the head castings and shroud have got beat up and I still have some color matched paint left so why not. I am hoping to get the castings into the blast cabinet tonight and lay down the primer. Tomorrow I am hoping to get the color coat on so it can sit for a couple days and will be ready for assembly this weekend. While I have the headstock all apart I decided to update the solidworks models to be as close to the actual parts I have. Below are a couple screen shots of what I have done so far.

    The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-whole-mill-07-23-14-pngThe order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-headstock-07-23-14-png

    I forgot about what I did this last weekend
    I picked up a used gantry crane for my garage so now I have a safe why to life my mill. My first project was to pull he entire headstock off and then lift the mill so I can spin the base cabinet around the correct way and put the chip pan under the mill. While I had the mill off the stand something terrible happened, my plasma cutter violently attacked my stand. This picture was from long before the plasma finished chomping away at the stand.
    The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-2014-07-19-11-27-02-jpg

    Here is what I started modeling up in Solidworks, I already cutout the front hole and I am going to cutout the rear area under the mill. On my stand I measured in 4" from all sides of the top and then that front opening is 10" front to back (14" from front edge).
    The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-stand-mods-07-23-14-png



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    Default I can use the spindle

    Helo,

    I can use the spindle, I am tweaking my Novakon Torus pro, please contact me off list

    markz@pemed.com

    Quote Originally Posted by engnerdan View Post
    If anybody is interested I have already accumulated some spare parts that I am looking to sell. I will come back and edit this post to add pictures when I remember to take some. But off the top of my head this is what I have extra that I do not need.

    1 - Factory Spindle, never run by me. just as it was pulled from the machine
    6 - Factory leveling feet. just as they were bagged and boxed from Novakon
    1 - Factory draw bar and associated pieces including the wrench
    1 - Factory R8 Arbor and drill chuck
    1 - Factory coolant catch basin (the part bolted to the chip pan with the hose barb on it) - Free, you pay shipping
    1 - Factory metal coolant hose - Free, you pay shipping
    1 - Air/Hydraulic combo draw bar release cylinder. Brand new from china never used. This will not clear my motor and I do not feel like getting creative enough to make it work.

    If you are interested in any of these parts let me know.




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The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

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