Need a Sanity Check

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    Question Need a Sanity Check

    Hello All,

    I am a product designer for a company that designs packaging foam inserts which we currently outsource for manufacturing. I am new to the world of machining, and have been tasked with sourcing a CNC mill to bring that aspect of our production in house. I have been doing a lot of homework recently, and wanted to post here to make sure I am not overlooking anything.

    We currently use Solidworks for all of our designs, so I am looking for a CAM package that integrates directly with Solidworks. It is basically between two solutions now, Mastercam for Solidworks or SolidCAM. The machine I have in mind is the Haas VF-3YT.

    My questions are:

    How much training is going to be required for a person with no machining experience to run this machine? Is it as simple as loading the output from whichever CAM software and pressing "Go"?

    Where can I find the tools required?

    What kind of maintenance is required on a machine such as this?

    Any suggestions for milling polyethylene foam?

    Thank you in advance for reading/responding.

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  2. #2
    Member awerby's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need a Sanity Check

    Quote Originally Posted by xTourniquet View Post
    Hello All,

    I am a product designer for a company that designs packaging foam inserts which we currently outsource for manufacturing. I am new to the world of machining, and have been tasked with sourcing a CNC mill to bring that aspect of our production in house. I have been doing a lot of homework recently, and wanted to post here to make sure I am not overlooking anything.

    We currently use Solidworks for all of our designs, so I am looking for a CAM package that integrates directly with Solidworks. It is basically between two solutions now, Mastercam for Solidworks or SolidCAM. The machine I have in mind is the Haas VF-3YT.

    [Why not look at VisualMill for Solidworks? It's a CAM module that plugs into the Solidworks workspace, and has 3 different levels of complexity, depending on what you need.You might find it both easier to use and less expensive than your alternatives.]

    My questions are:

    How much training is going to be required for a person with no machining experience to run this machine? Is it as simple as loading the output from whichever CAM software and pressing "Go"?

    [No, it's a bit more involved than that, unfortunately. There's a lot that goes into CAM programming, and to run the machine requires a trained operator.]

    Where can I find the tools required?

    [There are lots of different tools available, depending on what specific tasks you need to accomplish. You could start by looking in the Links section of my site: 301 Moved Permanently ]

    What kind of maintenance is required on a machine such as this?

    [Regular service by trained CNC mechanics. Also, your operators have to keep it cleaned and lubricated.]

    Any suggestions for milling polyethylene foam?

    Thank you in advance for reading/responding.

    [That's a flexible material that's not easy to machine. Have you thought of machining molds for it and casting the polyethylene instead?]

    [FONT=Verdana]Andrew Werby[/FONT]
    [URL="http://www.computersculpture.com/"]Website[/URL]


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    Default Re: Need a Sanity Check

    With the Haas VF-3 you can get in touch with your local HAAS Factory outlet. They have training classes for the machine. As far as Master Cam I have not used it as of yet but have heard that it can have a steep learning curve. With running a softer material have you considered anything like a 3 Axis CNC Router?



  4. #4

    Default Re: Need a Sanity Check

    Sir,

    I used to own a Haas VF3, and really, this machine is very powerful, and not for inexperience personal. Like one man said, if you don't know how to run manual machines,... then you should never be allowed on a Automatic one. You can, with one line of code, completely destroy a machine like this. Even experience people can crash them... let alone inexperienced personal.

    If bringing this in house is that important. Then you should hire someone who has the training, and possibly even better, 2 to 5 years experience machining on a Haas.

    A lot of shops have people who do design, others who do the CAM conversions, and then someone to run the machines. I did it all myself, and still do. I enjoy it. But if you are not a machinist, and never ran a machine like this... you need experience. One way to get that, like mentioned before, is School. Haas has schooling... and that could work. As well a general machining course, evenings at a local college, or tech. school could also help to introduce you to the safety needed, to operate any machine safely.

    Our first 9 weeks of tech. school in 1978 was safety. Before we were ever allowed near a manual machine. Some new CNC machines run at 1200 plus Inches per Minute rapids... That means that if you enter a G0 in the wrong place, by accident... you can be directly into the vise, or tooling, before you know what happened.

    So to spend that amount of money, and have no experienced personal on staff, just don't seem like a good business idea. But if you can hire the person with the experience, your company could benefit from his experience, and actually get the savings that you are hoping for... in doing this in house. Plus experience will help with all the tooling needed.

    Some times the fixtureing and tooling needed, can cost equal to the machine cost itself. Have you considered that?

    I am normally optimistic, and go for it. But the older I get, the more I realize, that maybe I shouldn't try to do it all myself.

    My friend attempted to do his own tile, in his shower. It did not go well... in the end, he told me, "I should have hired a tile layer!"

    Anyway, proceed with caution, unless you have money to burn.

    You may not be able to take the work directly in house. But may have to bring it in, slowly. So the first year, you may need to still outsource, and start ramping up the in house work, till you get the experience in house, to take all the production over.

    I would think, you still have orders to fill on time. Your in house solution, may not be 100% for a period of time. Unless like I said, you hire experienced help. Also like mentioned above, experience in machining foam may be a requirement in your hiring scheme.

    Good luck, which ever way you go?

    GOLDCNC5, BLUECNC4, GreenCNC3, RedCNC2L, SilverCNC2; CNC Software!
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    Member hanermo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need a Sanity Check

    Do yourself a favour.
    Go to a local jobshop, and ask them about 5 axis work cost/prices.

    Then look at hiring someone to teach you.
    Its not hard .. but you will need to know quite a bit about tooling, materials, and machining itself.
    The Haas control is easy - but again, you need some know-how about machining itself.

    It will take about 500-1000 hours to get up and running sort of confidently, and about 20k minimum in tools and bits and bobs.

    Its a lot cheaper to hire someone at 40$/hr, than have one crash at 5-15.000 in damages.
    E.g.
    You will need toolholders, collets for toolholders, and tools for the collets. Each about 50-100$, x 3 (toolholder, collet and tool) x about 20-30 (total tools).
    This will be about 5-10.000.

    Now add metrology.
    Now add holding fixtures, vices etc. (Budget about 5-10k).
    Now add cam.
    MADCAM is about 10k for 5 axis, and is about the cheapest there is for 5 axis.
    Learning cam is about 200-500 hour job on its own.

    So your total budget will be about 1000 hours in time, and 2x the Haas base mill cost.
    Thats what manufacturing costs are.



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