Mori NT Questions

[abhthree]

Hi,

I am looking at a Mori NT machine for an application that we have here in our shop. I have a few questions, and I am a new poster.

The application we have will not use up the capacity initially. For those who have these machines, are you busy with the machine? We are a job shop, and this would be an upgrade in machine complexity for us.

What type of tooling do people like for the spindle head? The dealer is recommending Capto tooling. Is this wise?

We are going to be running aluminum with a 20,000RPM head. What type of chip conveyor do people recommend?

Finally, we have been using Gibbs Cam for years, but I see that the new control comes with Esprit. What are people's impressions of this?

Thanks for you help.

[fordeverpower]

I work for a place with 3 Nt machines ,nt4300 and 2 nt5400. I usually work with the 4300 myself, great machines. We run most parts from a start to finish. The "red hed" of mill is very flexible.

The tooling is unique to the series, I am not sure what brand but the holders are triangular shape. We can't preset any mills because everything else is setup tapered holders at work, but its not a big deal. Im sure they sell something be we don't have it.

You can program right on the machine, it will show 3d displays of whats going on. And the accuracy and repeatability is the best i have seen, it holds tenths.

[tobyaxis]

I recently worked with an Mori Seiki NL2500/700 MSY. It's a great machine tool, but in my honest opinion the Capps/Mapps Conversational Programming is a leap. Your better off programming in G-Code. The Conversational posts programs that are 600-800 sequence blocks that really only need 250-300. This is due to long hand G1 Interpolations instead of Canned Cycles.

Also the Control on the standard machine is a Meldas, not Fanuc.

Overall it's a solid machine but the Control Software Stinks.

If you can afford it, get a 12' bar feed and not one of those Bar Magazines like the LNS.

If you need any additional help, send me a PM

[hacdlux]

I'm an NL guy also and i work alot in aluminum
we are looking at an nt also

barfeeder:
unless you run really long parts the bar loaders are actually much nicer, there are some logistical problems involved in handling a 150 lb steel bar.also the nt is a massive machine and with a 12 foot feeder your talking about a 50 foot long machine.

chip conveyor:
micro fine 3 it will reduce your coolant maintainence alot,especially if you have high pressure coolant. both my nl and my swiss have the std link belt conveyor. a decision i regret(aluminum chips stick to it and they also float

tooling:
many companys recomended capto, it has many more options in the turning department and over the next few years i see the price coming down to comperable to the cat and bt.

software:
gibbs should have a post, esprit i have been told has a very steep learning curve.

also, buy collet chucks for it, when you start talking cross work and multi axis a chuck of any size IS going to get in the way.

[tobyaxis]

I have to agree with the above post.

I found it easier to create four separate programs for the machine.

Turning in Spindle -1
Then the Milling in Spindle -1
Transfer from Spdl-1 to Spdl-2
Turning in Spindle -2
Then Milling in Spindle -2

Remember that you will be working in Planes G17, G18, & G19 so be sure you call the appropriate Plane like G18 for your Turning, G17 for Face Drilling/Milling, and G19 for Side Milling/Drilling.

It is also wise to call all your G-Modals for every Tool.

Programming can get a little hairy.

O2604(K26150-0-4 DISC TOP REV.-E)
(ALM 6061-T6 3.0"D)
(OFC 2.2")
(B-AXIS STROKE 2.095)
(S-PGM O5556 CUT REMNENT)
(SET LNS FOR PART OAL +.02 + C/O)
(LNS SUB-SBDL SETTING)

G330G99G54G18G0M200
G28U0V0M46
G28W0M69
(G53X-2.Z-14.M46)
(G28V0M69)
M1

(2/M98P5555 BAR LOAD S-PGM-1)
(2/M98P5556 BAR LOAD S-PGM-2)

N1(T101 CNMG431 TIP-3)
T0101M8
G28V0
M69
G330G99G54G40G18G0M46
G50S2000
G96S1000M3
G0Z.05
X3.1
G41G1X-.01F.01
G0Z.1
X3.1
Z.01
G1X-.01
G40G0Z.02
G42X3.05
G71U.1R.02
G71P100Q101U.006W.003F.012
N100G0X1.095
G1X1.375Z-.12F.003
Z-1.312F.006
G2X1.501Z-1.375R.063
G1X2.95
X2.98Z-1.39
Z-2.1
N101X3.05
G40G0Z.1M9
G28U0V0
G28W0
(G53X-2.)
(G53Z-14.)
M1

N2(T202DRILL 7/16.437"D)
T0202M8
G28V0M46
G330G99G54G40G18G0M69
G97S1200M3
G0Z.15
X0.
G1Z-.525F.006
G0W.01
G1Z-1.05
G0W.01
G1Z-1.575
G0W.01
G1Z-2.1
G0Z.15
X3.05M9
G28U0V0
G28W0
(G53X-2.)
(G53Z-14.)
M1

N3(T303 F-F/T CNMG431 TIP-3)
T0303M8
G28V0M46
G330G99G54G40G18G0M69
G50S2000
G96S1200M3
G41G0Z.1
X1.4
G1Z0.F.01
X.3F.005
G0X3.05Z.02
G70P100Q101
G40G0Z.1M9
G28U0V0
G28W0
(G53X-2.)
(G53Z-14.)
M1

N4(T404 NPT 1/4-18)
T0404M8
G28V0M46
G330G99G54G18G0M69
G97S100M3
G0Z.5
X0.
G1Z-.565F.055556
M5
G1Z.5F.05556M4
G0X3.1M9
G28U0V0
G28W0
(G53X-2.)
(G53Z-14.)
M5
M1

N5(T505 C-AXIS CROSS DRILL 7/16D COB STB 135SPT)
T0505M8
M5
M69
G330G98G54G40G19G0M45
G28V0H0
G0Y0
G97S2500M14(CCW ROTATION FOR 180DEG. C-AXIS TOOLS)
G0Z.6
X3.2
C0.
Z-.875
X1.5
G87X.03Q1000R0.F15.M68
G0X3.2M5
Z.6M9
M46
M69
G28U0V0
G28W0
(G53X-2.)
(G53Z-14.)
M1

N6(T707 C-AXIS CROSS TAP NPT 1/4-18 HSS)
T0707M8
M5
M69
G330G98G54G40G19G0M45
G28V0H0
G0Y0
G97
G0Z.6
X3.2
C0.
Z-.875
X2.75
G99
M329S150
G88X-.015R0.F.055556M68
G0X3.2M5
Z.6M9
M46
M69
G28U0V0
G28W0
(G53X-2.)
(G53Z-14.)
M1

N703(T303 DEBURR 1.375 O.D. CNMG431 TIP-3)
T0303M8
G28V0M46
G330G99G54G40G18G0M69
G50S2000
G96S1200M3
G0Z.1
G42X3.05
G1X1.375F.01
Z-1.3F.005
X1.475F.01
G40G0X3.05Z.1M9
G28U0V0M5
G28W0
(G53X-2.)
(G53Z-14.)
M1

N7(C-AXIS FACE SPOT 3/8D 90DEG. HSS)
T0606M8
M5
M69
G330G98G54G40G17G0M45
G28V0H0
G0Y0
G97S2500M13(CW ROTATION FOR FACE LIVE TOOLS)
G0Z.1
X3.1
C60.
X2.524(B.C. 2.524D)
Z-1.275
G83Z-1.515R0.F15.M68
C180.
C300.
G80G0Z.1M5
X3.1M9
G28U0V0M69
G28W0M46
(G53X-2.)
(G53Z-14.)
M1

N8(C-AXIS FACE DRILL .265D JBR HSS 118SPT)
T0808M8
M5
M69
G330G98G54G40G17G0M45
G28V0H0
G0Y0
G97S1500M13(CW ROTATION FOR FACE LIVE TOOLS)
G0Z.1
X3.1
C60.
X2.524(B.C. 2.524D)
Z-1.275
G83Z-1.975R0.Q2500F7.5M68
C180.Q2500
C300.Q2500
G80G0Z.1M5
X3.1M9
G28U0V0M69
G28W0M46
(G53X-2.)
(G53Z-14.)
M1

N9(TRANSFER, W0.1560, T1010)
T1010M9
M5
G330G98G54G40G18G0M46
M211
G28V0
G28U0
G0Z.025
M51
M251
G97S200M3
M35
G0B1.5
G4U.5
G1B.1F20.
M59
M259
G38B0.K.001F1.Q.05
G4U.5
M210
G4U1.
M11
G4U1.
G1B2.095F20.
G4U.5
M10
G4U.5
G97S400
G99
X3.15
M8
G1X3.1F.01
X3.02F.003
G75 R.01
G75 X-.01 I.05 F.004
G0X3.2
G28U0M9
G0Z.025M5
M51
M251
M80
G330M36
M59
M259
G28U0V0
G28W0
(G0G53Z-14.)
M1

N10(T0117 SPDL-2 R-F/C CNMG432 TIP-4)
T0117M8
M246
G28V0M269
G330G99G55G40G18G0
G50S2000
G96S1000M203
G0Z-.1
G42X3.05
G72W.02R.02
G72P1010Q1011U.005W.002F.01
N1010G0Z.03
G1X2.98F.002
Z.02
X2.94Z0.
X0.
N1011Z-.1
G40G0Z-.15M9
X3.05
G28U0V0
G28W0
(G53X-2.)
(G53Z-14.)
M1

N11(T0420 SPDL-2 R-BORE CIRCLE 3/8D)
(CCMT-2-1.5-0.5 TNR.008 TIP-1)
T0420M8
G28V0M246
G50S1500M269
G96S650M203
G330G99G55G40G18G0Z-.1
G42X.425
G71U.025R.01
G71P1111Q1112U-.005W-.002F.008
N1111G0X2.151
G1X1.921Z.015F.002
Z.378F.004
X.46F.003
X.43Z.393F.002
N1112X.425
G40G0Z-.1
G42X.425
G70P1111Q1112
G40G0Z-.15M9
X3.05
G28U0V0
G28W0
(G53X-2.)
(G53Z-14.)
M1

N12(T0319 SPDL-2 F-F/C CNMG432 TIP-4)
T0319M8
M246
G28V0M269
G330G99G55G40G18G0
G50S2000
G96S1000M203
G0Z-.1
G42X3.05
G70P1010Q1011
G40G0Z-.15M9
X3.05
G28U0V0
G28W0
(G53X-2.)
(G53Z-14.)
M1

N13(T0622 SPDL-2 F-BORE CIRCLE 3/8D)
(CCMT-2-1.5-0.5 TNR.008 TIP-1)
T0622M8
G28V0M246
G50S1500M269
G96S650M203
G330G99G55G40G18G0Z-.1
G42X.425
G71U.025R.01
G71P1111Q1112U-.005W-.002F.008
N1111G0X2.151
G1X1.921Z.015F.002
Z.378F.004
X.46F.003
X.43Z.393F.002
N1112X.425
G40G0Z-.1
G42X.425
G70P1111Q1112
G40G0Z-.15M9
X3.05
G28U0V0
G28W0
(G53X-2.)
(G53Z-14.)
M1

N14(T0824 SPDL-2 R/F- I.D. GROOVE .101W ISCAR 3/4D SHK)
T0824M8
G28V0M246
G50S1000M269
G96S150M203
G330G99G55G40G18G0Z-.1
X1.8
G1Z.205F.02
(G75R.01)
(G75X2.027I.025F.003)
G1X1.9F.005
G1X1.961F.003
X1.955
X1.991
X1.988
X2.01
X2.008
X2.0275
G4U.5
G0X1.8
G97S580
Z.191
G1X1.921F.003
X1.941Z.201
X2.0275
G4U.5
G0X1.8
G1Z.22F.01
X1.9
X1.921F.003
X1.941Z.21
X2.0275
X2.025
G97S450
X2.0285F.001
Z.2015F.001
G0X1.8
Z-.15M9
G0X3.05
G28U0V0
G28W0M5
(G53X-2.)
(G53Z-14.)
M1

N15(UNLOAD PART SPDL-2)
T0101M5
G28U0V0
G28W0
M73
B-12.8
M47
G4U.5
M74
G0G330
M30(M99 TO LOOP)
%

[DIFF OVER]

The capto tooling is great. so many options. the patent ran out on sandvik, so you do not have to buy from them, but i would.

Esprit on the new control rocks. Esprit has been solid on turn-mill machines.

[Dane Lindon]

hacdlux,

It is no small thing that Esprit is the CAM system that Mori has placed in their control. A couple years ago it was Mori's goal to reduce the set-up and programming time on capital intensive machines like the NT. Customers were indicating that it was a major barrier for purchasing the tool over several simpler turning centers and mills. Mori is rapidly approaching the time when the the machine can program itself with a imported solid model. No doubt there was a extensive evaluation of a CAM systems with Mill/Turn capability.

A real advantage is the control can use the same software as your offline programmer, sharing tools (databases), processes, and files.

I guess if the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

[Dane Lindon]

Toby D.

If you move block N15 above and combine with block N9 you can save a trip forward with the sub-spindle. In addition the part will remain in the sub until it has to be removed, reducing the amount of swarf that can get in/on the sub collet, jaws.

[hacdlux]

Originally Posted by Dane Lindon hacdlux, It is no small thing that Esprit is the CAM system that Mori has placed in their control. A couple years ago it was Mori's goal to reduce the set-up and programming time on capital intensive machines like the NT. Customers were indicating that it was a major barrier for purchasing the tool over several simpler turning centers and mills. Mori is rapidly approaching the time when the the machine can program itself with a imported solid model. No doubt there was a extensive evaluation of a CAM systems with Mill/Turn capability. A real advantage is the control can use the same software as your offline programmer, sharing tools (databases), processes, and files. I guess if the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

I have nothing against esprit, every cam system has a learning curve to it. the only reason i said get the post for gibbs, is he has been using it for years.

personaly i hand program 90% of my programs using methods similar to above. the only time i use a cam software(mastercam in my case) is when:
a) the geometry is too complex for my abilities(engraving and 3d profiling)
b) im too lazy or busy to do the math
c) combination of the two

when the boss asked me for a recomendation on cam software i said mastercam because at the time it was the software i already knew, two comunity colleges within blocks of my shop offer classes in it, and there was no swiss machine or nt in my future.

if i had my choice again i would have said esprit or part maker

mastercam support on these machines is weak at best and non existent on my swiss.

the nt is a very complex machine and having to learn both a new cam software and the actual machine at the same time might be a little daunting

now that my rant is done.

my real suggestion is that while you are waiting on delivery of your machine try to make it to one of the tech centers and play with the software/machine. also i believe they give you a floating license on the software so you can install it on a pc. see if they can ship it in advance so you can get a hang of it before your machine arives.

[the thrill]

the NLs, as some have mentioned, are Mits 720 controls with the MAPPS front end. The NT, however, is a Fanuc 30/31 series controller. I've been working with Esprit for the past 6 years and find that it's very good once you get used to it.

As far as the CAPS programming system goes, canned cycles are available by switching the Cycle Out option under Detail to ON. The advantage of the long G code is the ability to program special cycles via conversational (i.e. multi-peck drill cycles, multi-step, multi-depth, multi-feed turning cycles, turn/groove cycles, etc). I hate canned cycles because they limit you to "my way or the highway". A G71 cycle doesn't give you the certain abilities to use to your advantage that long code can. And honestly, who cares about program length? the machine memory is adequate and it comes with the 50mb area for program storage/retrieval as well as the ability to run CAPS programs directly without having to convert them (setting key, option 5, conversational direct = valid).

The NT is a good machine. CAPTO spindles are the USA standard but are available in dual face contact BT, KM or HSK. The CAPTO is the best bet for rigidity in both turning and milling applications. HSK is too light duty for turning, KM is garbage for both, BT is okay... the capto is my #1 choice. You can get tooling through a number of manufacturers and the price has gone down substantially.

And as far as planes go, when you're turning and milling front and side face you'll be using G17, G18, G19 but when you're at arbitrary angles, you're going to be milling using G17 and 3D coordinate rotation which makes programming pretty easy, actually. Basically you just pick a point, tell it to twist the coordinate system around Y and program X, Y and Z as if it were the front face of the part...

I can get into more detail if need be... I've been a mori app engineer for 6 years in some way or another and specialize in the NT, NZ and NMV series...

[calgarykevvy]

abhthree I use Esprit for my Macturn and I think it is pretty good. While I agree with the learning curve comment, the reason I didn't go with Gibbs (and there are way more people in my areas using it) is because they wouldn't allow me to develop the post. Esprit is generally open post and even if it's not perfect in the simulation, I can get the post to output correct code. I don't manually touch any machine code. If the posted code doesn't run perfect, I tweak the post not the code. The open post has really been key for me. But I guess you also have to be willing to be post programmer to get the benefits of an open post. And I should add that the complexity of a post for a B-Axis mill/turn is significantly greater then either a lathe or a mill.

fordeverpower I preset my Capto's using a CAT-Capto adapter. Adds time but I dislike the tool touch on my Okuma. 90% of the time if I have a part in the chuck, I can't even use it. Prefer offline presetting anyway. Once I got my zeros factored in it works great.

Kev