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Thread: Build thread: Mac's Momus X2S

  1. #141
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    Default Re: Build thread: Mac's Momus X2S

    Ben,
    very good find!! 4" diameter with a 5C arbor would be perfect for this unit (the front face is 4"), thank you :-)
    I was already hovering over the "buy" button when I noticed that the jaws are independent (each one of the four has it's own screw to tighten down on the work piece).
    Something makes me think that a self centering version of this might be a better idea in my case, so I'll keep looking (Shars doesn't seem to have one at that size).
    Thanks again, though - almost perfect, almost there :-)

    PS: I've been on the hunt for a matching tail stock today - this unit seems to need one that has a center at 60mm, I found 65's, 50's and some other stuff, but none at 60 around e-bay or anywhere else. I mean I could get a 50 and make a spacer for it. There are height adjustable ones out there too, but a fixed one at 60mm center to the bed would be really nice...
    If you come across one of those, please let me know. :-)
    --
    Mac



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    Default Re: Build thread: Mac's Momus X2S

    Hello again :-)
    It's been a while and I just recovered from being away from the machine for 3 weeks while on a vacation in Europe.
    Not trying to tease you or anything, that was more of a chore than anything else for me (I had 7 relatives in tow, playing travel guide for everyone, go figure).
    Anyways, I'm back now, totally ready for axis number four!!

    The foremost and biggest problem I had in the first place was that with one G540, we've already maxed out the number of ports for the steppers to control.
    The problem was that the G540 handles 4 axis (has four output plugs for the motors). That very well handles X,Y and Z - as you probably know.
    If you followed my thread this far, you probably know that the x-axis needed a slave motor a while back, which occupied the 4th port. And still is.

    I went back and forth for a while, also listening to others input in the decision on how to solve this in terms of the controller.
    Way back in my mind, I'm already thinking about a 5th axis or a tool changer of my own design, lol. It's all a soup of ideas, I guess.
    Still, the conclusion was that adding more than just one axis to the overall electrical design will only benefit the machine in the future.

    Said and done, this is probably the first Momus that runs with TWO G540's :-)

    WP_20140819_22_06_56_Pro by mkloberg, on Flickr

    It's already getting a little crowded in the right bay, but it should fit in there:
    WP_20140819_22_08_14_Pro.jpg by mkloberg, on Flickr

    At first I was a little overwhelmed when the second controller arrived at the shop, not sure where to put it inside of the machine.
    At the same time, I wanted to get a real charge pump into the circutry as well.
    That in itself called for a breakout board for one of the ports to get the signal as early as possible.
    A charge pump is basically an arrangement where Mach 3 sends out a 10khz on/off signal, call it a "heart beat" over one of the wires of one of the parallel ports.
    As long as that signal maintains its frequency, all is good - if that signal dies or does something funky in it's shape, then there's reason for concern.

    CNC4PC has small board that takes this signal for an input, monitors it's health and controls a relay that indicates how 'happy' it is:

    WP_20140819_22_13_27_Pro by mkloberg, on Flickr

    That worked out prett good so far, let's get back to the 4th axis:
    That wasn't initally funny, because I designated the x-axis slave channel as the a-axis channel in Mach3 a few months ago.
    That had to change, but afterwards the a axis was free for new stuff.

    I was pretty stoked at this point... :-)

    All went well, I was going to make a custom through-the-wall connector for the axis, but couldn't wait and just did an extension cord thing to get to to talk to the 2nd G540.

    Not having thought ahead, I didn't really plan on a particular model to run on the 4th axis,
    so I ended up with something from Thingverse: Signature Makerbot Mascott: The Rocket Gnome

    WP_20140817_22_01_50_Pro by mkloberg, on Flickr

    WP_20140817_22_02_25_Pro by mkloberg, on Flickr

    WP_20140817_22_03_37_Pro by mkloberg, on Flickr

    I have to say, clamping a piece of wood into the rotary axis opened a whole new world.

    Also, I just realized - this journey is far from over...

    Stay tuned ;-)
    Mac



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    Default Re: Build thread: Mac's Momus X2S

    That looks fantastic for your first 4axis part.

    What software did you use to generate the gcode?



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    Default Re: Build thread: Mac's Momus X2S

    Thank you :-)
    That's a good question, what I did was a little bit of a hack for now.
    First I looked at a program called Cncwrapper (http://www.cncwrapper.com/) and soon realized that it wasn't that hard to do on my own, starting with a flat xyz file of the carving.
    The trick was basically to just park the y axis above the center of the rotary and pretend that the a-axis (the rotary) will now do all the movements that the y-axis would normally do. 0 to 360, proportional to the circumference of the part to be carved. Hence the term "wrapping".
    I ended up writing a little command line utillity in C# that would parse the "flat" g-code, find all the G1 and G0 y axis values and map them to values in the range from 0 to 360 degrees, replacing those values and replacing the Y with an A at the same time.
    There's still a lot to do in the utillity to make it suitable for other parts, as some parameters are still hard coded for this particular part, perhaps give it a GUI front end too in the future.
    Cheers,
    Mac



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    Default Re: Build thread: Mac's Momus X2S

    Mac:

    So the charge pump is a PC health monitor, of sorts? I presume you use the relay to disable all motion, in the event there is a problem with the PC. Have you had such a problem? What scenario might this happen under? Just trying to understand the risks here.

    More than any other thread, I really look forward to seeing this one pop under my control panel with new posts. There's almost always something new and amazing. Thanks.

    Regards,
    John.

    No signature I would write will fit on only two lines.


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    Default Re: Build thread: Mac's Momus X2S

    Thanks, John :-)
    about the charge pump, yes that's exactly what it is.
    I've had that thing on the shelf for a while, now that I was wiring again due to the 2nd Gecko, I decided to finally put it in.
    In my case, the relay is also used to cause an e-stop should this "heartbeat" from the PC go out.

    Honestly, I've never had a problem like this before, I'm not even sure under what scenario Mach 3 would misbehave in a way that it would still output stepper pulses when it crashes.
    That wasn't the primary reason I got the pump, the problem I was trying to solve was a different one: I'm using a cnc4pc C31 24V I/O board and unfortunately, all the outputs behave in such a way that they all turn on when the power to the machine is turned on and Mach 3 isn't running yet / controlling them yet. The result was that my vacuum would always turn on for a few seconds when the machine powers up. It does the same thing when powering down.
    These are sourcing outputs, I guess it's just the way that board is designed. Fortunately, it has an "enable" input that I'm now controlling with the charge pump, to see if Mach is running before turning that board on.

    Unfortunately that still doesn't work quite right, but that's another story I might find a different solution for in the future.
    It still flickers when powering up and then the SmoothStepper somehow keeps the pulse going for a while when shutting down Mach3. It's no big deal though, now I just hit the e-stop before closing down.
    --
    Mac



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    Default Re: Build thread: Mac's Momus X2S

    Good News: For what it's worth, my GF and i finally felt confident enough today to open the Etsy store, to sell our Momus made products.
    I've been dreaming about that point in time since day one of the build. Now, it's finally there!! :-)))
    We're planning to make all kinds of things with the Momus and sell them in the new store, that will hopefully enable both of us to quit our office jobs for good, one day, yay!

    As always, I'll keep you posted on how that went :-)

    My Blog: MacDotCNC
    New Etsy-Store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/KascadeDesigns



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    Default Re: Build thread: Mac's Momus X2S

    Let us know how you make out on that etsy shop.

    Those shelves look great. I may have to make one for my Master, er I mean Cat.



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    Default Re: Build thread: Mac's Momus X2S

    Ahhhh.....living the Momus dream. Good for you!

    No signature I would write will fit on only two lines.


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    Default Re: Build thread: Mac's Momus X2S

    Mac.CNC very nice work on the cnc machine. I really like how you finished of the spoil board . Can you send me a link or let me know who the seller was for the 4th axis you purchased on ebay. Again nice work!



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    Default Re: Build thread: Mac's Momus X2S

    Thanks for your interest in the 4th axis... :-)
    Sorry, that purchase seemed to have been a one shot - I still don't know who actually manufactures these.
    The seller's name was imsrv, which lead me back to a website Desk CNC from IMService, which happens to be the makers of DeskCNC.
    That's also the company I got my touch probe from, I believe.

    Perhaps they can chime in on this, I'm pretty happy with the product so far... It could use a stronger motor, that's for sure.
    It had a pretty nasty backlash at first, while I was tensioning the belt in this thing it turned out that the little grub screws on the motor pulley were completely loose.
    After fixing that tensioning the thing some more, the backlash nearly disappeared.

    My only improvement request would be to use a motor that has a higher torque, because if you tension this thing so that there is no backlash - the frictional forces are so much that it will loose steps (even without turning something), so that's on my docket, to put a stronger motor in there.
    --
    Mac



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    Default Re: Build thread: Mac's Momus X2S

    So we went online with the Etsy store a couple of weeks ago, so far we sold about $1400 in product, but that's turnover - not profit!
    https://www.etsy.com/shop/KascadeDesigns

    More than half of that got lost in cost of sales (all the stuff we have to buy to make these, wood, glue, hardware), various fees, shipping supplies and finally in income and self employment taxes.
    People seem to love these shelves,, I've been doing nothing else but making these shelves fort he past few weeks.

    Speaking about the Momus dream: Yes, it's working - but there's more to it.
    Machining time for each item is currently about 40minutes, but there's a lot more to it. Assembly, sanding, staining and finishing. Afterwards it has to go into a box for shipping.

    I'm definitely proud of the process of building a CNC machine from pretty much scratch, with the help of the awesome Momus CNC plans by now, but building a business on top of it is absolutely another issue.
    Much more difficult than I thought.

    Anyways we are actively selling stuff, there are just some kinks that need to be worked out from here.
    We're flooded with orders right now and can't make these fast enough.
    It'll probably die down soon, but who knows.
    I will keep you posted,
    Mac



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    Default Re: Build thread: Mac's Momus X2S

    How's everything going over here?



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    Default Re: Build thread: Mac's Momus X2S

    Well, I didn't plan to post anything until I finished a somewhat ambitions production/"making of" video that I'm still working on, but because you asked:
    It's been crazy. The orders won't stop coming in - we're doing really good.

    Check out what we shipped on our new faceook page:
    ttps://www.facebook.com/KascadeDesigns/photos_stream

    I'm actually getting a little tired of making these and want to do something else, something that has a higher profit margin... Got any ideas?
    Someone told me once: If you have to paint 50 Mona Lisa's, the 50'th one will look quite sad. :-(
    There's some truth to that, think about it :-)

    Thanks again for asking :-)
    --
    Mac



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    Default Re: Build thread: Mac's Momus X2S

    ..........something that has a higher profit margin... Got any ideas?
    Raise your prices. If you're extremely busy, and not making enough money, then you're not charging enough. Raise the prices 10-20%.

    I was reading your blog the other day, about hand made and cnc.
    A cnc router is a tool, just like a table say, or band saw.

    The CNC doesn't assemble anything, or sand and finish for you. It just cut's parts. What's different about using a CNC, vs a router table and template? Is a router table and template not handmade, because all your doing is pushing it into a spinning tool.

    Does attaching the "hand made" label make a product worth more? I really don't see what the fuss about "hand made" is. I'd consider most products made of wood to be hand made, unless a machine is doing 90% of the work, including sanding and finishing.

    Imo, the only time "hand made" is really an issue, is when you talk about products made 100% with hand tools only. I don't really see the allure of this, as all it does is get you a much more expensive product, as using hand tools only takes a lot more time.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
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    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html[/URL]

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
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    Default Re: Build thread: Mac's Momus X2S

    > The CNC doesn't assemble anything, or sand and finish for you. It just cut's parts.

    That's what I've been thinking, thanks for your comments - I'm on the same train of thought.

    I've never realized how many steps there are, until I write them down:
    Purchasing the wood and hardware, cutting the parts on the CNC, deburring, dry assembly and warehousing the pre-assemblies, branding in the logo on certain parts (involves a blow-torch and a custom branding iron we had made), glue up and final assembly, card scraping, rough sanding (150), finish sanding (220), applying our secret shellac sanding sealer mix ;-), hand sanding again (220), staining to the specified color - 4 coats (General Finishes gel stain), polishing, spraying 7 coats of lacquer, installing the magnets and the pins, cutting the carpet, applying carpet tape to the assembly, mounting the carpet and stapling it in place, putting together the package, with printed instructions, the screw-driver and tools, packing all that up and going to the post office to have it shipped during lunch on your regular job. Customer Support.

    Wow, that's a lot of steps involving hands, and only one involves a CNC machine. Then again, that hand made moniker is probably overrated as Gerry pointed out.

    I forgot to mention in my last post that through all this, the Momus has been working like a Swiss clock. If you read through this thread, you already know that I've had a couple of the skate bearings break a while ago and I've also snapped off the shaft of one of the x-axis motors (fatigue crack). This was actually before we got into the bulk of the orders, ever since all I do is to wipe down the rails with WD40 every 2 or so days and it's been just awesome, no problems at all, no more cracked bearings or anything.
    I've calculated that so far we have processed about 640 feet of 3/4" stock through this machine, making 60 of these cat shelves so far.
    It's been amazing, no breakdowns whatsoever recently, everything is holding together.
    One thing I noticed during all this is that the Z-stepper motor gets extremely hot sometimes, you could cook an egg on it - but it's still running on the original motor, so that must be normal, since it pulls a lot of weight.

    What's really killing me in the whole process is the sanding. Once the slices come out of the machine I usually dry assemble them and that's when I usually discover that some slices are off by a few thousands, or even a hundredth. I'm still not sure where that is coming from, but I'm currently attributing that to using a really long drill to make the initial index holes. I ordered some stubby short drills to make that better.

    Anyways, to get to a table top type quality surface, I've been using square orbital hand sanders and in some cases, that takes me up to an hour to get a shelf where it needs to be. My elbow already hurts from all this sanding
    There has to be a better way, or a machine to do this easier. I've done a lot of research on this already. An oversized orbital spindle sander with a 9" drum might do it, but these are really expensive (Grizzly has those), then I found some shop made ones on youtube and also some industrial types that are made for sanding chair back parts, these are in the thousands though, on auctions.

    All I really need is a really big sanding drum (3-4 inches dia, 9 or so inches wide), to sand down these curved assemblies, with so I've come with a redneck solution today.I got me a cheapo wood lathe from harbor freight this afternoon ($160 with a 20% coupon), some 3 and 4" PVC pipe from Lowes, some carpet tape and sandpaper bands, fixing to make a really big drum sander for cheap to make sanding these shelves easier.
    I'll use the Momus to cut some disks that go inside the PVC pipe, stick a 1/2" threaded rod through those and mount that in the new lathe to create a drum sander that will hopefully make this step easier.

    If you have any other ideas on how to optimize this, plese let me know.

    I'll let you know how my idea went and sorry that had nothing to do with CNC, or the Momus itself - I just don't know who else to turn to righ now ;-)
    --
    Mac



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    Default Re: Build thread: Mac's Momus X2S

    applying our secret shellac sanding sealer mix ;-), hand sanding again (220), staining to the specified color - 4 coats (General Finishes gel stain), polishing, spraying 7 coats of lacquer,
    This is why you're not making enough money. Your finish costs more than the product is worth. Are you finishing under the carpet, or is this just the bottom and front face?

    What kind of wood are you using?
    I'd try to skip the sanding sealer, and go with an aniline dye. Spray a coat of lacquer sanding sealer over the dye, sand and two finish coats tops. Any more and you're throwing money away. Your customers won't notice any difference.

    You can get 4"x9" inflatable drums, but they're not cheap. Pneumatic Pump Sanding Sleeves and Drums - Supergrit

    I hope you're not sanding and finishing under the carpet. That's more wasted money.

    Here's another thought. Make a fixture to hold your assembled shelf, and run a 3D finishing pass on the bottom. Use the largest ballnose bit that your router can hold, with a fairly large stepover. Ripples from a large stepover can be sanded off in seconds with a random orbit sander.
    While this might add 60-90 minutes of machine time, it should reduce your sanding to about 10 minutes max. Just cut your parts a little larger to allow for the finishing pass.
    Let the machine do more work.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html[/URL]

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html[/URL]

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: Build thread: Mac's Momus X2S

    I agree with Gerry, don't waste money and time finishing underneath the carpet. Also, let the machine do most of the work for you. Think about making a jig you can put a blank on and let the machine do the 3D contouring. You can then just cut strip and clue those up into blanks to put on the jig. Will save time and material from waste; and no more misalignment!

    Another thing to consider is using a plywood base and veneer instead of solid wood. From the pictures it looks like you are using poplar from the big box store. If you are going to continue to make these with solid wood bases, you'll need to find a source cheaper than the big box stores, like a local wood distributor like Hoods Dist. They only sell to businesses, but you'll save 15-20% on your material costs! I, too, have a side business with my machine (https://www.facebook.com/armour.craft) and I use Hoods for my materials and save 17%!

    Hope this helps! Good Luck!

    Corey



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    Default Re: Build thread: Mac's Momus X2S

    Thanks for all your ideas!! It's been a while, sorry...
    I'm using poplar actually, really nice to machine, but blows out fibers sometimes - easy on the bits though.
    As for the finish under the carpet, no - we don't do that on purpose of course, still I'd like to get at least one coat of stain and laquer on there, so the tape sticks better.

    I really see where you are coming from with the skip the sealer and dye idea, I've done experiments with that some time ago but can't keep the fibers from rising up. What solvent are you thinking of for the dye (I have a good selection of TransTint bottles to experiment with). I already tried water (hell raiser on the fibers), alcohol (not so bad) and a funky mix with shellaq. Nothing that worked so far without some serious sanding, making it equal to regular sanding sealer, sand, stain.

    Corey, thank you for the idea with the plywood base and veneer, I have to think about that some more - that had crossed my mind a couple of times too.
    Also, I'm impressed that you spotted where I'm sourcing the wood from (Lowes, big box, very true $26 a board).
    15-20% off in that area would make a biiig difference in the profit area of this thing. I've already spoken to several lumber yards in my area and unless we buy like 500 board foot at a time, I could not find anything better yet. The only way to drive this down is to rip and plane ourselfes, which my shop is too small for. I really appreciate the thought though, totally makes sense...

    Both of you suggested going 3D for the shapes, but that just doesn't klick with me yet, since the main problem was the sanding.
    Still, thank you very much for putting your mind to that trying to help me out...
    Realizing what the problem was and with nothing on the market that would do this, I set out to build a custom sanding rig just for this, involving a mini lathe from HF, a 4" PVC pipe and a roll of 150 grit 3M sandpaper.
    Soon after that, I realized that I needed some serious dust collection, so I made a skirt around the drum with some more PVC pipe that would catch all that.
    It's hard to describe, but perhaps can see for yourself...
    Yesterday, I've gotten to a point where the product video is finally in a presentable state (draft, still some rough edges everywhere), so I uploaded it - fix it later, let's call this a draft/beta, lol.
    Enjoy :-)





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    Default Re: Build thread: Mac's Momus X2S

    Mac, nice production video! Can't wait for the next one... you need to keep shopping around for your lumber source. 500 board foot minimum is ridiculous! I've never heard of such, unless its a special order item they don't carry. Poplar is a basic lumber so pretty sure it wouldn't be. Hood's Distributing has a lot of distribution areas, check them out. They may have one close to you and they have NEVER had a minimum order requirement! You do, however, have to be a business, which at this point your are.

    To try and clarify what I was saying in my last post, and your video made it clear, the problem isn't sanding. You have that down with your HF lathe setup. The problem is your losing money on the overly produced assembly line of the base! Let me explain. Your current process is this: You cut the pieces, you then use a number of clamps in the hopes that everything stays lined up to minimize sanding, then you sand and sand and sand and sand some more. What I was saying it this: Rip lumber to height on your table saw (like the sled by the way), clue up a slab to width and depth like making a butcher block (eliminates time spent screwing and unscrewing things and the need for costly dowels), set the block in the cnc and let the machine mill the 3D curvature leaving you time to go do finish sanding or staining on another piece. Because everything would be in alignment straight off the machine, the only sanding to be done would be finishing. The question you might have now is 'what about the recess the carpet goes into?' My answer, your table saw and that awesome sled can cut that for you. The only thing I'm unclear about are the bolts you insert when cluing up. Are those to hold the front piece on? If so, there's another area you could save money, biscuits and clue will hold that on! Or are they somehow used to attach to the wall? And the holes go pretty deep, are those used to mount to the wall? Drill press could do those.

    I hope that clarifies what I was thinking a little more. Please don't take the above the wrong way, I'm not trying to be critical, just trying to give another view point. If your like me, you find ways to over complicate the most simple tasks. It's nice to see how others would think it through and make it more efficient, cause we all know that time is money!.

    Hope this helps, keep up the good work!
    Corey



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Build thread: Mac's Momus X2S

Build thread: Mac's Momus X2S