Please help a newb

[hakachukai]

Hi, as the topic suggests I'm a complete newb to machining. I really want to get some machine equipment so that I can make my own custom parts (because I work on machines a lot). Ufortunatly... Being that I'm going to be in college for atleast another 4 years, I have very little money.

So... I was looking into getting this 3 in 1 from Harbor frieght: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=39743

But after searching around on this forum I hear that they are not so accurate. So my first question is: How accurate do I need to be? (I'll tell what I want to make at the end of the post).

Secondly... If this is junk, where can I find something else about the same price range that is decent?

Third... Can I replace that lathe head with one that will hold atleast a 5 or 6 inch piece? I looked over it at the actual store. The head looks like it bolts on with 3 or 4 bolts. It that a standard type of thing?

Fourth... Can I lathe/mill steel with that? Is it powerful enough?

That's all I can think of rigth now. So here are some of the things that I want to make:

Hub adapters for disc brakes
Adjustable jet screws and seats
Milling of small engine heads.
Custom gears (I'm guessing this might be possible)
Custom sprockets
Crankshafts
Pistons/cylinders (I think I might need a spinning table for this)
Etc...

I'm into everything from small engines to robots. Lots of times I end up using my current tools to make more advanced tools, to make more advanced tools. So... I really just need to be able to make stuff. The more custom parts I can make the happier I will be. Most of the time I end up making things out of scrap steel or aluminum, just because it's free and available. I recently got a wirefeed welder which has been a big help.

So... I need something. What would you guys suggest for that price range? Do I need to buy extra stuff to make it work? Does it come with cutters, and all of that type of thing?

Thanks in advance for all of your help.

[Tim Wiltse]

Sadly I don't that little machine will do much of anything that you are wanting to do. When you say crankshafts and pistons etc are we talking real car/motorcycle engines or model car/airplane engines? That little machine would be good if you are making parts for little slot cars and that's about it!

Later,
Tim Wiltse

[hakachukai]

Right now I mainly do small engine stuff. So I'd be wanting to make parts for 50 to 70 cc engines.

[in2steam]

Since you don't state your price range I am using $600 USD.
Your accuracy is subject to your ablity and the machines ablity, simply asking us if they are suitable is not proper, however asking if it will hold a tolerance of lets say plus or minus .003 would be more correct.

That mill/lathe combo style you will find is not all that useful, it might work for you but I do small steam engines and I have had the chance to use a smithy which is of better calibre then the HF model and I found that its almost useless. The HF model I have exaimed several times at my local store and find that its obsurd even for harbor freight. From your swing requirements I would actual either get an 8x14 and an x2 mill/drill lathe through HF or buy the go516 from grizzly. The other possiblity is that you could buy a taig mill and lathe, see www.cartertools.com but that would be right at 6 inch swing. In your case if you want to make gears a seperate mill or milling attachment for a lathe would work better. The 3 in 1 machines at least IMHO are only good for a few small markets like gunsmiths. The 7x10 machines are also good for there size, and have a few pluses like variable speed.
You would be turning a piston and crank between centers on a lathe more then likely and boring our a clyinder, all of which could been done on a lathe.
Also your spinning table is called either a rotary table or dividing head depending upon its desgin the later being very useful for making gears. You will find that unless your gear is very special that in alot of cases its easier to purchase.
If you are contemplating doing all that stuff double your budget, and you will have the basics I learned that the hard way, you need alot of tooling and fixtures in order to do alot of those things you listed, some you can make yourself depending upon skill level and of course building them adds to your skills. I think in your case if you buy just a lathe and milling attachment you can make most of your parts you listed, a mill would be need to properly make gears, however it could be done on a lathe of large enough size.
Some other things you need to think about, do you need to make machine screw threads? do you need to turn a part more then 6" in overal height and will there be alot steel turned requiring more power.
chris

[hakachukai]

Thanks for all of the information!

Yes... about $600 is my budget. Once I get the machine I could slowly add to it over time.

I do need to lathe pieces atleast 5 inches in diamter, but 6 would be nice.

As far as accuracy is concerned, What I'm really looking for is something that is accurate enough to make small engine parts that work reasaonbly well. I have no skills at all, so I'm just going to have to practice a lot to gain them.

I do plan to work with steel a lot. How can I tell whether or not a lathe/mill is powerful enough to cut steel at any given diameter of stock?

Also, I found this website on how to use a fly cutter to make gears. I found it quite interesting.

http://aardvark.co.nz/pjet/gears.shtml

He says that he was able to make his own cutter by hardening the steel using some powder, and extreme heat. I've been wanting to know how to harden steel for quite some time. Is this information accurate? Is it really that easy?

BTW... where would I go to buy gears? I've been wondering about that four quite a while as well. I've found a few places, but they seemed outrageously expensive.

Thanks again for all of the help!

[handlewanker]

Hi Haka, your best bet before you even think about spending any money is to get some training on using a lathe/ mill, that is the very basics of turning and milling, oterwise get someone to show you hands on how to use a lathe etc.
Without training you are playing with fire, and machinery is very unforgiving at the best of time.
$600 dollars for a lathe wont get you much when you consider that you also require a number of ancillary pieces of equiptment to just get started.
Ian.

[hakachukai]

Yes, that is a good point that you have there. This is actually all part of a bigger plan.

See, I'm currently in college studying to become a mechanical engineer. My Machine shop classes will begin in around a year or so. So I wanted to start learning now, so that by the time I got to the class I would be ready to get serious. (plus I love building machines)

So, I've decided to not get anything right now. Because I can't afford something good, and I don't want junk. I don't mind taking the time to build the skills, but I need a machine that can perform.

Does everyone agree that the Grizzly go516 is a good machine for what I want to do? If not... what type of machine should I set my sights on? (I like to set goals).

Thanks again for all of the help and info!

[handlewanker]

Like I said, learn about the machining process first, then you can appreciate the potential and shortcomings of a machine by knowing what it can do.
Unless you have experiance in driving a car it would be suicidal to attempt to learn by driving one on a busy road, same goes for machinery.
The first and most important thing is to get to know a few safety rules before you attempt to even switch the machine on, and these cannot be self taught.
Ian.

[in2steam]

Wow they still teach machine tool operations to engineers, that made almost faint when I heard that, our engineers don't like to "work" with any machine.

The GO516 is a good machine, but setting your sights as almost everyone here will agree never stops they always go up just like you never have enough room. The only advice I can give on that point is if you start to buy machines, look at commonnalites like tooling tapers and sizes so you don't buy duplicates of nearly the same thing with a different taper, thats a been there done that for me, and doubling tooling costs to keep 2 machines is stuipd when you I could have bought a machine that had the same taper as my lathe at the time. Now I have all mt 2 and 3 instead of mt2 mt3 r8 c3 and brown and sharpe#4(long story). All those collets and adaptors start to add up and in the case of my c3 and B&S 4 it cost more then the equipment I was using it on. Also just buying the lathe is not enough if you have not figureed that out, tooling, measuring and other things you need will always exceed the purchase price of the machien tool several times over once you are equiped well, esp with what you wanted to do. I had a friend tell me tha I should double my purchase price for tooling, I think hes lucky and can be in the right place and time alot as I have spent well over three times my orginal purchase price of my first lathe. There is alot "I could really use that" if you are smart you turn that into "hey I could make that" etc.

Also I was taught on a worn out old lathe in school, it was a challenge, but once you understand how to run a worn out lathe running a good machine is that much easier and you could probably run it better then if you started with a good machine.
chris

Originally Posted by hakachukai Yes, that is a good point that you have there. This is actually all part of a bigger plan. See, I'm currently in college studying to become a mechanical engineer. My Machine shop classes will begin in around a year or so. So I wanted to start learning now, so that by the time I got to the class I would be ready to get serious. (plus I love building machines) So, I've decided to not get anything right now. Because I can't afford something good, and I don't want junk. I don't mind taking the time to build the skills, but I need a machine that can perform. Does everyone agree that the Grizzly go516 is a good machine for what I want to do? If not... what type of machine should I set my sights on? (I like to set goals). Thanks again for all of the help and info!

[handlewanker]

Hi in2, It's a bit like the captain of a ship, he doesn't have to be able to stoke the boiler to get the ship away from the wharf and out to sea, but I'd like to see a stoker try it.
Most of the time engineers know of a machines characteristics and so plan accordingly, but it's when they try to push the limits that they fall down.
I don't think ANY qualified engineer, that is a person with a college degree in the field of mechanical engineering, as opposed to someone who has worked every machine invented, would want to get his/her hands grimed up by working at the bench with muscle power, instead of applying brain power to guide the work force in the right direction.
One engineer can be the guiding force for a whole factory of skilled workers, but without the guiding force the factory would soon lose direction and cease to exist.
Part of an engineer's training is work experience, but only to familiarise him/her with the tools of the trade.
The quote, "How can I fly like an eagle when I'm surrounded by turkeys", describes the very real dividing line between using your brains instead of your brawn to solve a problem.
Brawn, and lots of it, will get the job done, but brains will show you how.
Ian.

[handlewanker]

In2, One thing I learned about the old machines and that is they have a mind of their own.
You can work with them but never against them.
Take the case of the average belt driven lathes of yesteryear, with bronze bearings in the headstock.
I learned from fellow workers in the early days of my career, that the parting tool was a nasty vicious tool that would dig in and get the job to ride up on it, and so smash it to bits at the drop of a hat.
Untill one old guy showed me that parting from the rear tool post with the tool upside down worked like magic on these old machines.
Never looked back after that.
Ian.

[in2steam]

Originally Posted by handlewanker Hi in2, It's a bit like the captain of a ship, he doesn't have to be able to stoke the boiler to get the ship away from the wharf and out to sea, but I'd like to see a stoker try it. Most of the time engineers know of a machines characteristics and so plan accordingly, but it's when they try to push the limits that they fall down. I don't think ANY qualified engineer, that is a person with a college degree in the field of mechanical engineering, as opposed to someone who has worked every machine invented, would want to get his/her hands grimed up by working at the bench with muscle power, instead of applying brain power to guide the work force in the right direction. One engineer can be the guiding force for a whole factory of skilled workers, but without the guiding force the factory would soon lose direction and cease to exist. Part of an engineer's training is work experience, but only to familiarise him/her with the tools of the trade. The quote, "How can I fly like an eagle when I'm surrounded by turkeys", describes the very real dividing line between using your brains instead of your brawn to solve a problem. Brawn, and lots of it, will get the job done, but brains will show you how. Ian.

Hi Ian
I would agree with you to a certain extent, but if you have a guiding force going down the wrong road you all will be in peril very soon. If you give that "captain" overwhelming control with little or no foresight and supervision he will run the ship aground if he does not know better where ground is, I would be content on saying that its the crew well trained and competent knowing there jobs, and the jobs of others if needed in a pinch that would save that ship~the helmsman knows were the ground despite poor orders~. Its the first officer who in many cases runs the ship on a level that makes it go and should be weighing all information available. Also on his ship the captain should be able to identify the boiler, where it is, and know what happens if it runs out of water.
I am no longer in a fully industrial field, when I was the industrial engineer that I worked with was well up to snuff, he worked with the maintenance staff(the guys that built it), the T&D room(the guys that tooled it), R&D(the guys that wanted it via design), and the operators(that ran it).
My current employer the engineers have little to do do with actual machine design, they only "improve" and "articulate". I think that you mistake what I stated, when I say "work with" my job is to make the wrench magic happen(I don't want, need, or care for there help), I mean they actually come out and look at the machine, they take the 10 minutes to talk to the operators, they "look" at something instead of pretending to understand a problem from several miles away in an office and try to work off drawings very often not even the correct or accurate ones~often from there own error in submission. I would much appreciate that someone who is designing something to hang onto/off my presses that they at least come and look at the machine in its current state then assume that all is the way it was when it was delivered a decade ago. The sad fact is my engineers buy the equipment, with input from the chain of command and no longer the worker ants who have to try and make it work. It seems lately esp that they buy A. the cheapest machine B. the machine that has the least history C. the machine that is the hardest to fix and least understood or proprietary D. A used piece of junk that should have been scrappeed. Of course my company has the habit of obtaining engineers who are freshly graduated~I don't knock this everyone has to start somewhere~ and have never had printing experience, again not always needed but you would think you can find at least one.
So far they the biggest fupar is that they ordered a 750,000 USD press with the wrong voltage hook up(Amongst other problems as being to large for the area it was placed), I rewired every motor, every transformer and replaced three very large and heavy power ballasts at the cost of thousands of dollars, not including my time and press downtime(well it never has run right as they ordered the first one, and it has not preformed as expected so they don't know the hourly rate on it) when had they actually asked someone, anyone of a half dozen people, what the plant voltage was there would have been no problem. I only missed one thing buried in the bowels and that was just a relay that ran off the mains. Oddly enough the engineer that was in charge of that press left two weeks before it was delivered, I also fault the company that we ordered it from as they never sent there field engineers until the press was completed and in route, and never arranged millwrights or even service personal to help install and rewire it~am I asking too much?.

I got the atlas clausing going without scraping(the owner was disapointed that I could not show him), at least yet, the gib was badly marred and slightly bent, a little draw filing and its all good, from .030 dish down to .002-3, I am happy with that the owner wants to build the wear backup with some moglice.

chris
PS The older I get the smarter my dad and grandfather get.