Moving a VM-16

[ImTippmann]

So I have a general rule that I never force a deal, if things dont seem to want to come together it just means a better deal is to come. On the other side of this is that I try not to pass up a deal should the pieces just fall into my lap. Its a method that sounds stupid, but seems to work more than not, probably because it helps me keep in mind that I can always walk away from a bad deal.

That said, the pieces seem to be falling together on their own with a 96 VM-16 that has popped into my radar a short drive away. Within my budget, its not perfect but if it were perfect I would never get to learn, and thats why I want one in the first place. They will lift it onto my trailer unloading can be done here with a neighbors tractor with forks. This leaves the question of how on earth do I secure it to the bed of the trailer? I have a metric ton of 2" straps and will gladly add to the pile if needed. I will probably pick up some 2x10s and make pads that spread the weight out a bit extra. On my Lagun manual knee it was pretty easy to strap down as there is no plastic or fiberglass to work around.

So, long story short, anyone have advice on moving them? Maybe some pictures? Im not committing to buying until I see it in person and get to give it the once over, but will be taking my trailer with me in the event that I decide to make the leap.

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[Jim Dawson]

On a wood deck trailer I like to build a ''picture'' frame around the base of the machine or skids to keep it from sliding. Use heavy deck screws to secure. The real danger is the idiot that stops right in front of you when you are driving. You are not going to accelerate out from under the machine, but breaking is the real problem. Leave a lot of extra stopping distance.

Lag screwing the machine to skids is my preferred method.



Using a metal deck trailer, I secure the base as shown in the pictures below. I'm using chains, but heavy straps will work also.



Then I try to grab something up high on the machine, in the case of the VM16 the column looks like it's accessible, and looks like it has enough clearance for straps without killing any enclosure pieces.





Depending on how substantial the enclosure is, you might be able to strap across it also. When I transported my lathe, the chains were attached to the jack screw feet.



Then a couple of 3 inch straps right over the enclosure.



It didn't even move at all in on a 1700 mile trip, even survived one panic stop in heavy traffic.

[dkirby]

I have had the good fortune to move 2 VM16's twice. And as Jim has said, the first thing to do is build a frame around the base to stop it from shifting, front to back and side to side.
If your trailer deck is wood you can lag the frame to the deck. If it is a steel deck you will have to chain the frame somehow.

As far as strapping from the Z column, there are other factors involved.
First is, these enclosures are fiberglass and not very heavy construction.
You should be loading it from the back of the machine and this will have the enclosure side panels parallel to the trailer.
If the machine is still powered up you can move the spindle nose down onto a block of wood on the table. If not under power you can still move it manually
Once the spindle is down you can take the 2 panels for the motor enclosure off, and run a strap through the motor housing and then out through the side of the machine enclosure and then strap it to the trailer.
But the last part depends more on the trailer itself and whether you can get the right angle of the straps to tie it down without breaking the fiberglass enclosure. The enclosure is too high to be able to do it from the top of the column.

The first move I did was with a wooden deck and all I was able to do was build a frame around the base and lag it to the deck. No strapping to the top at all, but the base of the machine is where the bulk of the weight is, and with the spindle down on the table it takes away from being too top heavy.
I moved the machines 200 miles this way without any problems.
You will be OK, it's the other drivers that may be more of a problem than anything else.

Just a hint in the event that you are lucky enough to get the VM 16. Take some good heavy 4x4's with you in case the forks are not long enough to reach through to the front of the machine so that you can catch the base of the machine and lift it up.
Now you have already guessed how I know this to be true.

Jim has shown some pictures on how to tie down a knee mill, but you will find none of it is going to work on a VM 16 with a fiberglass enclosure. There is just nowhere to hook a strap to.

Good luck and I hope you are able to buy it, and make the move safely.
Dave

[ImTippmann]

Thanks guys. I have moved my knee mill a few times, it didnt scare me much simply because I could cover it in straps without worrying about where they were crossing the machine. This machine with its fiberglass enclosure worried me a bit of where do I get a hold of it. If I have to, I will take a hole saw to it and make access ports to strap it down and fix them when i get it home. I grew up in a shop that was dedicated to repairing fiberglass boat hulls.

I look forward to seeing it and probably bringing it home. Then hopefully it fits through my garage door........ if not, the tractor may need a bit of a run to cram it through. jk

[ImTippmann]

Dave, If the VM16s you moved were of the early flavor, do you by chance know how much they weighed? Im seeing them listed as being anywhere from 5k to 9k lbs, thats a pretty large window that could alter what trailer I need to bring with me. The one im looking at is a 96 model.

Should it come home with me, I will take and post plenty of pictures to show how I moved it for the good of others that may be in my shoes.

[dkirby]

My vm16 is of the 1997 vintage. It has the 12 tool toolchanger.
It weighs in probably somewhere between 4 and 5000 lbs.

[ImTippmann]

ok, good. I had planned on taking a single axle atv/utv trailer rated to 7200# to save fuel as the other option is the 32' 20,000# gooseneck trailer I use to haul water.

Im sure I will probably become a regular on this forum while I get a machine running. I have settled of a milltronics, just have to find one in budget without any massive red flags like major parts missing.

[stagen]

Not a VM16, but I picked up my Partner 1 that also has a fiberglass tub last October. As mentioned, create a picture frame around the base, I used 2x6s doubled up (had it laying around) and lag bolted to the trailer deck. Straps around the base. With the spindle lowered and blocked on the table I was able to strap the column out the removed side panels. I capped the end of the table with some lumber to raise the strap off the enclosure. Ended up being a nice smooth 2 hr drive home. Getting it on the trailer was the exciting part, the business had an underrated lift and had 4 guys hanging off the back trying to counter balance the 6k lbs.

Milltronics Partner 1F by Michael Hagen, on Flickr

[dkirby]

I have a Toyota forklift that is under rated for 6000lbs. It will lift more with no problems. The difficult part comes when lifting the VM 16, you are quite a ways from the load center and it lightens up the back end.
I also have a longer set of forks, and I am able to reach from the back to the front of the machine.

I am sure that my VM 16 would not weigh more than 5000lbs but it would seem to be heavier than that, because of the load center distance.
Knowing what I know now, if you have to spec. out a forklift to make the move I would go with a 6k machine, just to make it. Faster, Safer and Easier.
And in order to get it onto the trailer can be a job in itself.
Dave

[ImTippmann]

Excellent on the weight. I REALLY didnt want to take the big trailer.

So my current plan is to have it lifted onto the front of the trailer (it has rails around it except for the front sides and rear). I will have the trailer blocked from underneath where the machine will be initially set, then use a 3 ton chain come-a-long to slide it backwards to the right spot to give me a tongue weight I like, the right tongue weight makes or breaks a trip with a trailer. Then when I get home I will reblock and drag it forward to where the forks can grab it to unload.

For strapping it down and holding it in place, its not my trailer, so I cannot lag it to the deck or lag boards to it. Strapping it from underneath to keep it from wandering shouldnt be hard, and after this thread I feel better about the fact that I should be able to find a way to hold it down to the trailer. I am going to stop at one f the local boat winterizing shops and see if they will cut and me a shrink wrap to fit over it as that would seal better than anything in the event that it should snow.

[bmoore]

My vm16 is of the 1997 vintage. It has the 12 tool toolchanger.
It weighs in probably somewhere between 4 and 5000 lbs.

My vm17 weighs around 6000 pounds, and it was all my 6k fork lift wanted to lift. I had to get it from the side on the trailer because if how it was loaded on the trailer. The rear wheels lifted before the vm17, we had to lift from the opposite side with a tractor and pull the trailer out then lower it together.


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[bmoore]

Mine came from Ohio to nc strapped like this.

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[ImTippmann]

Eep, just the thought of trying to coordinate setting that down without dropping it is giving me a cold sweat. Lol. Have to do what you have to do.

When I unloaded my lagun knee mill I had a hydraulic dovetail trailer. I put it on the very end, tied it secure, dropped the deck and slid it down with a 3ton hand winch. But it only weighed about 3500.

I will hit the scales before and after loading or unloading it and get an exact weight I can add to this post for future referencing

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[sportybob]

Just some hints about moving the Partner and VM series machines.
center the X travel. move the Y back towards the column, lower the head down and block it BEHIND the spindle nose. (there is $2000. of bearings in that spindle)
***REMOVE the control box from the electrical panel !!!! If the machine has a CRT display remove the front panel !!! ( you all have been warned ;-) )
stow the flood tank side panels and motor cover inside the machine use card board and strapping to secure.
tie back the doors thru the handle and out around the enclosure.
using cardboard or foam place between the left side of the head and pull the tool changer up tight to it. secure the tool changer from around one of the tool pockets and the nose of the spindle.

Using an air ride trailer is very highly recommended. these are precision machines.

That's my 2 cents worth.

sportybob

Pick up the machine from the back side using long forks, use 2 6X6" one on each fork under the rear opening., tilt back slightly and lift.

This gives you the best center of gravity to work with.

[ImTippmann]

Sportybob, after reading through this and other forums extensively I would say your 2 cents are worth a lot more than the average 2 cents. So your suggestions are taken very seriously.

Unfortunately air ride is not in the cards for this move, but I will be in the upper end of the trailers weight capacity and I tend not to drive like a madman, so it should get a pretty smooth ride.

I had planned on removing any panels and parts that can be damaged or blown off and putting them in the back seat of the truck or in the bed. I think it still has a crt, either way I will add the front controls to the list of "put it in the cab".

I remembered a few posts referencing bringing the spindle down and blocking behind it, not on the actual spindle. Seems logical not the beat on the expensive bearings if it can be avoided.

The machine is not under power, the price tag justifies the risk to me. I am told the computer won't come on. It has had the single board upgrade. I shouldn't have too much trouble fixing that though, one of my favorite hobbies is to diagnose and repair things.


However lowering the z may be tricky, I thought I had read in the schematic somewhere that there is a z brake. Is there a brake somewhere that I will need to disengage? If there is and I do disengage it, do I need a wrench on the ball screw to keep it from freewheeling down?

This forum and the posts of repairing this brand are what made me settle on a milltronics brand machine. I like things that seem to be in house repairable without needing piles of proprietary circuit boards and parts. So thank you to everyone that posts and replies in this thread and all the others. It has made me feel far more confident in jumping from manual only garage to cnc.

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[sportybob]

Hi ImTippmann, if not under power then there is a little more work involved. You will still need to center X and move Y back, you will need to pull the Y front way cover and then turn the ball screw by hand. the X it may be easier to remove the motor cover and turn it from there.

In the Z axis, The brake is built into the motor. if it is a belted motor, remove the 4 motor bolts and grab on to the ball screw pulley (use heavy gloves) and let it slip thru the gloved hand. If the ball screw is not worn out then it won't "fall like a rock". You can use the belt as a hand hold. If it is a direct drive machine., remove the 4 mounting bolts and use the motor as a hand hold to lower the lead.

When you get it home and powered up, give me a call and we will figure out if you have a bad power supply or ???

sportybob 952-288-6340

[ImTippmann]

Excellent info, thank you.

I will get it powered up and see what I can find. The power supply in the card cage seemed like a good place to start troubleshooting.

As long as I have you, I do have a question pertaining to the drives. I keep hearing about a positive/negative reference voltage, +24 -24 I think, but maybe +-15, but I cannot seem to find confirmation of if that is a way of saying it or it is true +0-.

Do the drives use for control signal:
-24v = full speed one way
0v = full stop
+24v = full speed the other way

Or is it:
0v = full speed
12v = stop
24v = full speed

I hate being a bother and asking piles of questions, but the more I know now the easier I can find issues when I get it home.

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[sportybob]

The VM-16 wont have the + /- 15V power supply that some early P1 machines had. The + /- 15 was used for early DC drives ( Servo Dynamics and Fenner DC drives), later machines that have the Glentek Dc drives do not used the + /- 15V
so early machines used 24V and + /- 15VDC power supplies. later machines use a 24VDC power supply.
the control for the drives is 0 to 10 VDC 0 = stop 10vdc = full speed.
Depending on the age of your machine it may have Yaskawa AC drives and motors.

There are some machines that were built with an earlier AC drive system, it uses Servo Dynamics AC drives and CSM motors

so there are some variable factors as to the age and options the machine was built with.

A picture of the inside of the electrical cabinet can reveal all.

sportybob

[ImTippmann]

I think I follow the operation now. Knowing it is trivial at this point, bit I'm known as a plethora of useless information. But that useless information makes me very good at diagnostics of about anything. So thank you for the explaination, I think I understand the way the drives are controlled now and will re read a bunch of posts and such to confirm.

Here is a picture of the cabnet, I called milltronics with the serial number. They said it was ordered as a pretty basic vm16a machine, but was upgraded to the sbc in 2008. No major repairs as far as their records show.

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[sportybob]

C5 control, Glentek DC drives, spindle drive has been replaced from original PC3 or GPD-515 drive, 24VDC power supply.

sportybob