Niagra Falls--Prospective buyers

[AMCjeepCJ]

Let me first say I thought long and hard about whether to put this on a public forum and until tonight, I had decided against it. I need to first say the people at Milltronics are wonderful, Benji, Mark, Tim, etc... However, I have a small list of concerns about my new machine that new buyers should be aware, here are the ones I can think of right off the top of my head.

I'm VERY curious if anyone has had trouble with leaky cabinets on their Milltronics. I had a rather bad day today and when I dropped back in the shop tonight to pull a double I noticed that for the past couple of days (at least) my VM-22 has been pissing on the floor again! It came from the factory missing the proper sealant at all four corners, I say this because you could literally see the concrete through the cracks in the cabinet where the sealant was missing. It was everywhere EXCEPT in the four leak prone areas. I honestly don't know where the hell its leaking from now but it seems to be a seam that they already resealed since installation. I finally got my butt in gear and checked all the cracks, (I'm partially paralyzed so crawling isn't high on my list of 'things to do',) wouldn't you know it, the rest of the cabinet isn't sealed much better!

That said, I guess this forum is as good a place as any to express my concern over what should be a non-issue. I'm honestly kind of ticked this mill is leaking again, yeah, they'll fix it for free....again but geez! I hope this was a freak incident but if not, please let me know.

I know the guys from Milltronics check this site and I don't mean to gripe but my coolant tank has two steel grates and they are BOTH painted almost completely closed. I had to use a sawzall on my brand new $70,000 mill the very first day in order to get coolant to spray. If you fill the tank to the full line, it barely goes over the top of the grate and with the pump ON it quickly empties the reservoir to nearly dry, so you pump nothing!

The doors on the front of my machine pinch your fingers if you're stupid enough to open them all the way up with your hands on the handles, (I mean turn your fingernails PURPLE.) This actually makes me angry because some engineer ABSOLUTELY must have noticed the design flaw before selling these things to the public! Absolutely NO excuse for being that slipshot on what COULD HAVE BEEN an overall high quality product.

My Z axis limit switch was not attached on arrival and the Z lube line was severed in half and in another spot about 3/4 the way through. I personally think the limit switch could have wiggled off in transit possibly, no way of telling but I highly doubt Milltronics is to blame.

Another thing worth mentioning that I was not informed of is that: (at least on mine,) the factory setting is set to read the disk drive when you boot up the machine and it loads any parameters you have saved on disk. This doesn't sound too bad except it loads the tool tables too!! In the real world this means if you have changed or loaded any tooling since that backup file was made, you will crash the machine if you don't retouch ALL your tools!! I'm not saying this is bad to have it setup this way but I AM saying the buyer should be warned, my installer wasn't even aware of this feature until AFTER I found it by trial and a few semi disasterous errors!

I ought to say I feel bad about sharing this stuff because I feel like I'm being spiteful but in reality I'm a paying customer and these are not my friends. My cousins are quite successful and told me to seperate the two or it will drive you insane, so here goes...

Roughly 11 years ago, I ran into a bug in the Centurion 5 software and informed the engineer from Milltronics face to face. Now I have the Centurion 7 software and still have the same bug. Here was a reply from Milltronics:

((((I'm aware of the problem with engraving specific words. We never had any crashes (that I know of) in the past decade because of that one.. The same thing is true for the PRINT and DPRNT commands. The "bug" has never been fixed, because the work around is so simple. Fixing the "bug" would probably be simple, but we are no longer making changes to the Cent7 software. Maybe we will get it fixed on the Centurion XXXII?))))

Pardon me, but that is one of the most lame ass excuses for not fixing a glitch I've ever heard.

My last cause for concern would have to be this part of their website that says:

((((Full color graphics allow verification of tool path and part profile prior to program execution. Zoom in/out, rotate or window on detail for a clearer view. Unlike graphic systems on other CNC controls, the Centurion graphics are intertwined with the motion control system of the machine. This provides synchronized display between the graphics and machine movement and guarantees that there will be no discrepancy between what is seen on screen and what the machine actually does.))))



This is true to a point. If you use their 'remove tool lengths in graphics' option it shows a Z axis rapid traverse plunge each and every time you do a toolchange! I have a stack of emails and phone calls trying to find out WHY it showed a Z crash move that in reality didn't exist! Talk about scary! I now have to toggle my parameters back and forth if I desire to use this option but need to double check that an imminent crash is not lurking in my future. BTW, this option is really nice if you're aware of the misleading red lines going everywhere! It actually shows you what the part will kind of look like MUCH better than the standard viewing parameter. My opinion is it's 95% there, just one more tweak.

I'd like to add this if I may. Although I am quite annoyed by a few things on my mill, I know that nothing is perfect and I honestly believe in this company and it's employees, from the top, clear to the bottom. I'm not just saying this, I'm actually planning on buying another of their VMC's in the next 18 months because work is picking up and even though this mill has it's faults, some glaring, I am satisfied overall with it's performance, just NOT it's craftsmanship.

To give the mill props, I do tell everyone that it's incredibly easy to learn, use and teach to others. I have had no trouble showing people how to run it and with good results! It's quite accurate too, I think?! I'm going to run a test on the accuracy in the near future before the warranty expires, lol, ummm, yeah

Ok, to be 100% honest, if I could do it all over again, I WOULD buy this mill all over again, even with it's problems. See, the performance is awesome, the control rocks and training employees is a breeze. Now lets hope the fit and finish catch up to the rest of the mill. This company has tons of potential.

My vote: 8 out of 10

[Enda]

Have to agree with you on the finish of the milltronics machine, its like the designers got bored half way through it and just rushed it to the finish line.
im a MB19 user and yes i was left with a pool of coolent on the floor first time i used it, it was all over the place . i just took the cover off and emptied a can of sealent on it, hasent leaked sense.
nice controller or basic and easy parts, but its a pain in the ass once you start geting complicated, and ass for the txt cycles forget it. in saying that if i had the choice i would think long and hard about another milltronics

[AMCjeepCJ]

On a good note, I love the controller, that and the price per inch of travel. I'll try to post a picture of the wheel I'm building right now after Cincinnati. The Cent VII made it very easy to cut and with a little practice, it actually saved me a lot of time over using a CAM program.

[AMCjeepCJ]

Here again is the reply from Milltronics concerning a bug reported a decade ago:

((((I'm aware of the problem with engraving specific words. We never had any crashes (that I know of) in the past decade because of that one.. The same thing is true for the PRINT and DPRNT commands. The "bug" has never been fixed, because the work around is so simple. Fixing the "bug" would probably be simple, but we are no longer making changes to the Cent7 software. Maybe we will get it fixed on the Centurion XXXII?))))

I just remembered something. As I recall, it took me the better part of a day to figure out the 'simple work around.' Now days, it would probably take me 2-15 minutes to figure out such a problem but back then I was brand new to cnc's and I didn't know enough to figure out the 'simple' fix. I think it is idiotic to assume your customers should have the ability to perform such a 'work around'. I'm sure any Milltronics employee could easily handle such a small bug but what about a fairly new apprentice or a seasoned journeyman without ample computer training and cnc experience? I think it sets a BAD precedent to leave known bugs in the software for ANY reason. I noticed the reply said they no longer work on Cent7 software but I brought up the issue in the Cent5 version shortly after it was released. That still left Cent6 and Cent7 to have this bug fixed.

I was engraving the word "CALL 1-800-123-1234" into a cavity block and the software literally tried to call up a subroutine. Now it did NOT actually go through with it, it errored out instead. It's disturbing to me that no one actually knows every command that will pop an error in engraving. It makes me nervous to think that the control 'thinks' it is supposed to perform the command instead of looking at it purely as text to engrave.

Ultimately I am extremely curious to know what other 'bugs' they have neglected to fix that really could crash my machinery. If I've found 3 or 4, I'm sure there are many others as with ANY software. My disappointment comes from them not stepping up to the plate and fixing the bugs as they are found or at LEAST in the next version of their control software.

[AMCjeepCJ]

I don't want to sound negative all the time because I'm so stinkin' happy with the controller I could hug it! People really out to check this out, it has some incredible features!!

[ty1295]

My only experience with Milltronics was when my college bought one.

The machine would randomly drop tools out of the spindle, and at other times try to stack tools into the tool changer. Doesn't work to well.

The support at that time (1997ish) was awful. I few of the other students ended up installing a port to quickly use a normal keyboard and learned a lot of the work arounds.

Additionally it had a larger horsepower motor, BUT the belts would only transfer about 1/2 that horsepower before they went up in smoke.

About a year later the school bought a Haas so work could be done and left the milltronics as a toy for people to screw with.

Needless to say when I moved to industry and had budgets to buy machinery Milltronics was not on my "lets look at list"

Not sure what has changed since then, I am sure some improvements have been made but it goes to show how an impression can last for a life time.

[One of Many]

We have 2 Milltronics VMC's and 5 of the VK type 3 axis mills. They have had very few problems compared to the other 4 BP VMC's we have. All of the Milltronic's machines are 1990-1997. The BP's are 1990-2002's.

The Centurion control is very nice for tooling support or production. The one I use daily for tooling is a 1990's vintage. The simdisk sucks, but what it lacks in storage is made up in DNC. It fits the design and development work I do, perfectly well. I'm not up for giving it a hug tho-

I don't think Milltronics does their own iron. I would guess that would be reasonably proven import iron and fit with their control? They would still be the end QC before delivery, so a lot of the annoyances should be cleared up before a customer has a chance to be tainted with a bad experience. One failure to support a problem developes the potential for the disgruntled to kill several potential sales!

Sure some machines will have some glitches now and then, but I don't know of many machine tools that don't. I've never been expecting the machine to do it how I want it to, with no adaptation from the user! So, a glitch in my terms is handled by a fix or workaround in almost any unfamiliar machine. By technicality, it will only do as it is told in the way it was designed. I have always had to alter my thinking to get the machine to serve it's purpose.

When I was in field service, I would just cringe at the possibility of a customer expecting an explanation on why some things were the way they were on a new piece of equipment. The standard was always, "That is not the way our other or old machines work, and I don't like it". Well, geez, duh! Trying to explain my function in the wheel......I didn't design it, make or break it, all I can do is put it back to the way it was made to work. The expectation of some people can never be satisfied all the time, but they find a way to vent on the closest person representing the OEM, regardless of their position. Even after resolving the core problem, some owners would still find something else to complain about that can be near absurd for any Service tech to rectify, but be held responsible for it anyways.

Both sides of this issue have its displeasures! We adapt or jump ship?

DC

[AMCjeepCJ]

I first want to say that whoever added the extra two inches to the Y axis on my machine is a genius! I know my cousins Fadals have practically zero extra room in front or back of the table. At first it was a slight annoyance reaching in so far but as I look at it more, this extra room is exactly the way to build it! I might make the front lip of the door five inches lower though for those times you're loading from a "Big Joe" but with the extra space I can put in an oversize part such as a wheel blank and use the full amount of travel!! Hallelujah!! On my cousins Fadal the blank will hit the casting or ways. I don't remember for sure but I think the Haas my old partner ran, was similar to the Fadal in this regard. Milltronics gets my vote for thinking ahead in those critical areas.

If anyone out there cuts wheels, I HIGHLY recommend the VM-22 for performance reasons, you won't regret it. It's like they read my mind and built a machine specifically for me!

It would do anyone looking for a new mill to compare the features, travel and price on a Milltronics to anyone else in the market. They aren't perfect but the troubles I've had are in reality annoying but not in anyway detrimental to making good parts.

Sure, fit and finish are not like on a Mori Seiki but with the improvements I've seen from them, I honestly believe you'd be hard pressed to justify a more expensive machine if you give the Milltronics a good long look.

Anyone considering buying one absolutely MUST have training, lol, the owners manual sucks although the control is amazing if you really learn how to use it efficiently!!

UPDATE: We might scrap out our old mill in the next few weeks and buy another Milltronics only this time a tool room mill with 32x19 travel to relieve the workload on the VM-22.

[moldcore]

Hello fellow Milltronic owners!

I just read this thread with some interest, we have two machines. A Partner 1 (16 X 24) enclosed with tool changer purchased new in 1996, and a VM24 (24 X 40) purchased new in 1999. Both are still running but have required some TLC over the years. Both have fiberglass enclosures that leaked when they were installed but have been clean since we resealed all the joints. I’m not a fan of the fiberglass because it’s hard to keep clean and is fragile if a part is chucked out of the vise and hits the walls. Over all these machines have served their purpose, and for the money they have been a good deal. Machine quality and engineering was not what it could have been. Like the door pinch mentioned (ours didn’t have that problem) we noticed many areas that just made you shake your head and say “what were they thinking?” I’ve seen the newer machines and have to say they learned from their mistakes, they are real nice.

We don’t use the Centurion control to program at all so I’ve never gotten familiar with the programming part of it. We use Surfcam exclusively to program the molds we make. DNC and disk drives to transfer programs, very quick and never have to test run anything.

Would I buy another, sure, why not? But not too many dealers left in the Rockies willing to take a chance.

[moldcore]

Duplicate post deleted

[AMCjeepCJ]

Hey everybody,

Tim Horgan from Milltronics just contacted me and he has fixed the software bugs I mentioned! Talk about quick response! They are fixing the autoload parameters on start-up thing in the next release but he sent me a file to install on my machine to fix the 'remove tool lengths' graphics error.

If you have or had trouble with your door pinching your fingers, put a small magnet there and you'll never have another problem again, not to mention you can pop them off when you need the extra two inches to load a part on the table.

My apologies go out to the milltronics person, (you know who you are,) whom I quoted from an email. I now understand more fully why you said what you did and I appreciate your honesty in explaining your position without giving excuses. I really like the integrity of the guys and girls at Milltronics. Every one of us makes mistakes but it takes a quality individual to take criticism without putting the blame on others. I've noticed more integrity in dealing with this company than with any other customer or vendor I've ever dealt with.

I'd welcome any of you milltronics guys to share a little about the company on here and what your mission is now and in the future. In my book, it's a clean slate. Yes, in the past we bought a junky mill from you guys in the early 90's but I am so thankful I talked my pop into buying this mill from you guys and giving you the benefit of the doubt. We honestly thought it was a gamble but it was a gamble that is paying itself back EVERY SINGLE DAY!

Thanks Tim, Benji, everybody...

You and your products are great~

Sincerely,

Carl P. Stender

[mxtras]

Thanks for updating us, AMC.

Scott