VM-22 grabbing wrong tools and crashing parts!!

[AMCjeepCJ]

I purchased this machine new 2004 and when brand new it would occasionally lose track of what tool was in what holder after a power down. It was never remedied under warranty although I feel it should have had the warranty extended to cover this one problem since it has happened since delivery.

Today I went to double check the locations of all the tools after starting the VMC up and as usual, they were all wrong again. However, the BIG STINK today is that now it began doing this while the machine is running!

In other words, this morning tool 5 was changed out for tool 23 with an M6T23 while tool 5 was in the spindle and tool 23 was in pocket 4 on the carousel. I then called up another tool to do an operation and then called tool 23 back up only to get tool 14 or some crap like that~

The reason this is so dangerous is because say I'm running production parts all day long with four tool changes. In the past it would do exactly that, run perfectly until powered down. After being powered down it would sometimes lose track of the tools and if I fired up the machine the next morning running the SAME program on the SAME parts, it would load DIFFERENT TOOLS and crash, crush and destroy anything that gets it it's way.

This problem has cost me thousands of dollars in busted tooling and damaged parts in the past. Since my dealer couldn't find the problem back when it was new, I performed a work around by using MDI to load each tool in my carousel every morning to make sure the tool list in the parameters, matched the actual tools in each tool holder.

It was a huge waste of time but since no one could fix it under warranty, I had no other choice. But now with it doing it randomly throughout the day I can't use the tool changer AT ALL! I don't have the cash to pay my dealer $100 (edit: $100 an hour) to come out and not know what to do to fix it. I can't pay them to just guess over and over.

I'd like to attempt changing the parameter so that tool 1 always goes back to pocket 1, tool 2-pocket 2, etc. It makes the programs take a little longer to run during tool changes but it's the only thing I can think to try but no luck finding the parameter to toggle.

I'M DESPERATE, PLEASE HELP I NEED TO BE BACK UP AND RUNNING BY THURSDAY AT 3:00pm. My customer will be at the shop needing a special part finished then.

[Farmers Machine]

952-442-1401 is the # to Milltronics service. call with your serial # and they will help you.
good luck
The Farmer

[AMCjeepCJ]

I had a typo, I meant I can't afford $100 an hour for them to experiment with my machine not knowing how to fix it~

Thanks for the info Farmer, I'll be getting ahold of them but in the meantime, if anyone has experienced this problem, please let me know...

PS where do I find the serial number? Inside the cabinet?

[moldcore]

The Serial Number should be on the outside of the cabinet, at least it is on 2 of ours. Like Farmer says, call Milltronics, they can walk you through reloading the parameters, had to do this a few times at no cost to us other than time lost. This may or may not work but worth a try. Our 2 machines have had really bad electrical problems in the past, one is a VM24. We’ve never seen what you describe but have seen the machine shut down for no reason only to be traced to a loose electrical wire someplace. Just curious, in the program, how is the tool change listed?

If you’re losing $1000 in machine damage and parts, it may be worth spending a few $100 in a service call to check out the machine. This is a serious problem (calling up the wrong tool) that needs to be addressed NOW before someone gets hurt. I once programmed the wrong tool that put an empty turning spindle into a vice, wasn’t pretty. Cost a lot more than a few $1000.

[AMCjeepCJ]

Originally Posted by moldcore The Serial Number should be on the outside of the cabinet, at least it is on 2 of ours. Like Farmer says, call Milltronics, they can walk you through reloading the parameters, had to do this a few times at no cost to us other than time lost. This may or may not work but worth a try. Our 2 machines have had really bad electrical problems in the past, one is a VM24. We’ve never seen what you describe but have seen the machine shut down for no reason only to be traced to a loose electrical wire someplace. Just curious, in the program, how is the tool change listed? If you’re losing $1000 in machine damage and parts, it may be worth spending a few $100 in a service call to check out the machine. This is a serious problem (calling up the wrong tool) that needs to be addressed NOW before someone gets hurt. I once programmed the wrong tool that put an empty turning spindle into a vice, wasn’t pretty. Cost a lot more than a few $1000.

It's not the program. It is the actual tool table under I believe (utilities) (tool change) (slots) maybe? I'm not at the shop today, I was severely bitten by an animal yesterday that tore several huge gashes through my thumb down into the meat. (did I mention yesterday sucked?)

Anyway, under the tool change, slots directory there is a table of all of your current tools which in my case shows you 24 in the tool changer plus one in the spindle for 25 total. This page, directory, whatever is where my problems lie. It is as if the brain in the CNC randomly forgets one or two tools or switches them around in the list.

A good analogy would be to think of my 25 tools going out to lunch and one waitress writes down all of our orders. Twenty minutes later she comes back with 25 plates that are all exactly like we ordered but she gives one or two of them to the wrong guy. Likewise, my has ALL the tool diameters correct and the offsets too. That info is stored in another file in the machine. It is STRICTLY the file that "remembers" the seating arrangement for the tools in the carousel and spindle that get mixed up.

It will also sometimes pop a warning that tool 00 is in the spindle when actually a real tool (1-24) is in it. This error on startup requires you to manually remove the tool, go through the slots directory and manually change the numbers to match the tool in each pocket. Then presto!

It may very well be a bad parameter or a loose wire, I have no idea. It is just very odd that it only affects this one directory and nothing else. I wouldn't think a loose wire would affect only one file in he machine but I really have no clue about those things. It appears more like some sort of system error that forgets to save the current locations after tool changes.

I am not sure how or where this information is stored for that particular directory, could it be that portion of the hard drive is corrupt or maybe a card is defective in the back?

It is unsafe but I'm the only one who uses the machine. I will get to the shop ASAP and call them up.

Thanks for the info everybody! I will update the solution to this problem once resolved~

[AMCjeepCJ]

PS

To answer your question about how it is programmed, it calls up the "correct" tool no matter if it's MDI, conversational or a complex program from CAM software. The problem is strictly the slots directory getting confused~

[ZZZZ]

By any chance, have you left a parameters disk in the drive?
On some versions, the init.bat file will load the parameters from the disk over the machine's file at power-up.

Problems like this can be a nightmare to diagnose. I'd start looking for loose connections and make certain you have a single path to ground.

A wire from the ground terminal in the cabinet travelling un-interrupted to the ground buss in the main service panel is the only good way to ground the machine; not a ground rod, not a building ground, not the conduit or other raceway. I prefer a rubber covered cord from the machine to the junction box to eliminate any 'noise' found in the other wiring in the shop.

Clean grounds make a lot of problems disappear.

[AMCjeepCJ]

I have had the parameters on a disk at startup problem before. Actually it was the week I received the machine and couldn't for the life of me figure out the problem at first. I finally figured out what it was and immediately contacted Miltronics. The first thing I was told by the engineering / programming department was that the Centurion 7 software would not get any more future updates. I contacted Benji Rashleger (spelling) the previous owner of Miltronics son and within a week they had an update ready for all Centurion 7 owners for the machine to ask you on startup if you wanted to load parameters from disk, yes/no. That whole loading the parameters if you forget to pop the disk out was not cool.

I was VERY impressed with them fixing it so quickly. Then I wrote him about their door handles pinching your fingers against the cabinet if you opened them fully. I only have one working hand so this was a big problem since smashing my fingers too hard makes my life a big pain in the ass. I highly doubt it was even two months later they built extensions and sent them to everyone who owned a machine with that design flaw.

NOW THAT IS CUSTOMER SERVICE!!

As for the wiring on this machine, it is on it's own dedicated wire through a fairly big circuit breaker with nothing else on it. There are only three machines that run off a dedicated transformer to regulate the power to 208 on all three phases. At no time are anymore than one machine running off of that transformer 99.999% of the time.

I understand machining inside out but electricity and circuits, etc . are well outside my area of expertise. I was able to postpone my appointment today until next week because of my thumb getting mangled so I'm planning on going in tomorrow to try to remedy the situation.

Thanks for all the ideas and I will keep my iPad with me and check out everything you suggested and let you know. Hopefully it's something simple and I can post a solution on here for anyone else who has this problem to try.

I'm open for more ideas and suggestions too but I will try all of these and contact Miltronics tomorrow afternoon.

Thanks again everyone!

[AMCjeepCJ]

I reread what you wrote and I misunderstood the first time.

I will double check with my dad tomorrow about the ground. I'm 100% sure it runs back to the breaker in the cabinet. I have a buss bar running through the shop right above the machine but the power is inconsistent and runs high which is why the mill is on a dedicated transformer to keep the machine happy. I'll have him look it over with me from where power comes in the building, clear to the machine and check the voltages as well. We'll pull all the grounds and clean the contacts too.

The crappy thing is that it's NOT a consistent problem, so if it doesn't flake out on me for a few weeks I won't know if I fixed it or if it's just lurking, lying in wait to get me! LOL, maybe I ought to skip Miltronics, checking wiring, grounds, etc. and get an exorcist. Honestly it is like it is possessed and you just never know when it's going to come after you.

Have you ever had an electrical wiring problem that affected only one file in a machine the same way over and over but nothing else? It's just so odd how it does it, not to mention scary as hell when it grabs the wrong tool and goes BOOM!

One smart thing I did was double check my tools manually via MDI before hitting go the other day because the customer was standing there with his brand new casting design indicated on my table. That would have been extremely embarassing!

[ZZZZ]

Yes, I have seen a bad ground affect one parameter in the pfile.dat file. In that case, it was the G54 Z offset value which caused crashes. I have no idea why that one out of all the others, but when we fixed the ground, we never saw the problem again.

[AMCjeepCJ]

Originally Posted by ZZZZ Yes, I have seen a bad ground affect one parameter in the pfile.dat file. In that case, it was the G54 Z offset value which caused crashes. I have no idea why that one out of all the others, but when we fixed the ground, we never saw the problem again.

That is awesome news, I am hoping my problem lies there also. Sucks you had that happen but that is so similar to my problem, it gives me a lot of hope that a faulty ground will be the culprit.

Two quick questions though; was the problem you experienced after power up or during operation and was it an intermittent problem or something that happened constantly?

[Farmers Machine]

My friend has the white mills with red trim, it irks me to say the name. But it is their requirement to drill a hole in the concrete and drive a 10 foot copper covered ground rod on each machine to insure proper grounding. Also check your voltage there is a sticker on the panel that states 220 volts. and that means 220 volts, not 230,240,or 256 that was driving my mill insane. after hooking up a custom transformer is has never missed a beat.
Good Luck
The Farmer