Happy new year from Mikini Mechatronics

[slowtwitch]

Regarding posting internal pinouts - Seemingly simple request, and wish we could do exactly as requested. It's on a big poster in the shop along with the other definitions for manufacturing and service.

Let's start with some useful information.....How about we start with this one.... What is the pin out of the db9 connector from the spindle board to the main board??? May be helpful to some....

- We do have a pretty simple answer though [I]- Call us (see below for the long answer why we have to have you call).

We can also re-iterate what is on our specification sheets, which is the fact that our systems use PWM control for the spindle.


Mikini Mechatronics, LLC [/QUOTE]

Nevermine I'll figure it out myself.

[slowtwitch]

4) We continually work on improvements

We continue to “hunt” for higher performing and more reliable components, at reasonable costs. One of the “nagging” issues for any enclosed machining center (or severe duty automated IP54 + rated device) is electrical switch performance and reliability (in our case limit switches). We use Omron industrial switches, and are looking for better (though the same switches are used on $125,000 dollar class machines) . With 9 switches per machine, the chance for failure is greatly increased. Got ideas, let us know. We’re continually testing new switches.


- Mikini Mechatronics, LLC
Watsonville, California, USA [/B]

I had a homing switch problem. So, I ordered a new one from Mikini for about $80.00. Sadly, when it arrived it was totally different than the ones in the machine. By that I mean that the physical size was different. I had to make a new mounting plate to get it to work.

When another switch failed, instead of sending $80.00 to Mikini and having to make new mounting setup. I ordered 9 new proximity switches off Ebay for about $6.00 each. They were the same size as the original ones. They have been working smoothly since install. Plus, their repeatabilty is very good.

[howecnc]

Could you put up the make and model of the proximity switches you bought?
I would like to check them out and also see what the differences are compare to the originals.

Thanks

[MIKINI MECH]

Please contact us with details of the switches you've had positive luck with, and the issues you ran into with a switch we supplied.

As noted, we're always looking for better solutions. At over $50 cost each the current switches which have been in use since 2009 (Feel free to look them up on digikey) are not inexpensive.

You're indicating a $6 switch is performing at a level exceeding your needs. To re-iterate - We're very interested in this, please do get in touch with details.

Incidentally, we sell the switches we use for the same cost as digikey - ~ $56, and have done so since starting to use them. Perhaps you had one air-freighted ?

We believe it would also be helpful for users to post the context of a situation regarding machine details and history when commenting on a subject. For example the intended project or part detals, code/tooling/fixture/material in use, model year of the machine and/or serial, and history of use as far as known, location, installation specifics, any special order customization performed, user changes, etc.

-Mikini Mechatronics, LLC

I had a homing switch problem. So, I ordered a new one from Mikini for about $80.00. Sadly, when it arrived it was totally different than the ones in the machine. By that I mean that the physical size was different. I had to make a new mounting plate to get it to work.

When another switch failed, instead of sending $80.00 to Mikini and having to make new mounting setup. I ordered 9 new proximity switches off Ebay for about $6.00 each. They were the same size as the original ones. They have been working smoothly since install. Plus, their repeatabilty is very good.

[slowtwitch]

Could you put up the make and model of the proximity switches you bought?
I would like to check them out and also see what the differences are compare to the originals.

Thanks

I just did a search on Ebay for proximity switches. Then narrowed my search to bring up the lowest cost items first. You'll find a slew of switches in various configs. Mind you, theese are from China, but, I feel the Onron's are made there too. It's been a while since I made the transsition, but i'm pretty sure I used an NPN switch.

If I have some time I'll pull one out and double check.

[mcphill]

I am trying to troubleshoot speed dropping issues at low speed and low torque operation at low speed. I have NO interest in reverse engineering your drive. Truly. I am curious, and I am motivated, and I will figure it out on my own if I have to. But you are committed to your customers, and you want to be as open source as possible, so I thought I would give you a chance to help out your customer base. How about it?

Once again, can you provide the following specs on the spindle motor:

Resistance, in Ohms
Inductance, in milli-Henry
Ke - Peak, in Volts per 1000 RPM
Rated Current - Peak, in Amps
Number of Poles

Thanks in advance.

[mcphill]

We believe it would also be helpful for users to post the context of a situation regarding machine details and history when commenting on a subject. For example the intended project or part detals, code/tooling/fixture/material in use, model year of the machine and/or serial, and history of use as far as known, location, installation specifics, any special order customization performed, user changes, etc.

-Mikini Mechatronics, LLC

What will the poster get in exchange for all this information, other than a request to call you directly to get more information? You made about 10 (I didn't count, so if it is 7, you can go ahead and call me out for spreading more misinformation) posts in the last 12 hours and I don't believe you have provided any new information yet - other than the price you charge for the limit switches. Is that right? In that same time, you have requested NUMEROUS times that posters contact you directly to discuss further. Maybe you don't understand the whole point of a forum. It is for OPEN EXCHANGE of information, and it is here to document for all to see and for all to learn from. This way, if a user has a similar problem in the future, they can attempt to learn about and potentially fix an issue without having to get in touch with Mikini on what may be a common issue. It is a learning opportunity for the end user, and it is becoming clear it is a learning opportunity for Mikini as well.

May I suggest Mikini go to the Tormach forum, and observe how that company is able to interact with its customer base to provide a healthy dialog and open exchange of information? Tormach PCNC - CNCzone.com-The Largest Machinist Community on the net!

There you can see that instead of "call use so we can talk 1:1", Tormach takes the approach of opening up and almost "sponsoring" end users helping each other!

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/mentor...tml#post681115

If you want to see more of their interactions directly with their end users, have a look at their individual posts:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/search...archid=7256150

Now, clearly the number of users on the Tormach forum is a goldmine for them as well. They have MANY users posting and many different users at different skill and competence levels. But guess what, it isn't just a goldmine for Tormach, it is also a goldmine for Tormach's end users. Their users are providing each other troubleshooting, upgrade, and improvement information (without the fear of the liability issues that Mikini seems to have). This is the type of exchange that I would love to have on this board, and the reason that I had the CNC Admins set up this area specifically for Mikini. It is also the reason I pointed Mikini to this forum - to assist its customer base and provide a positive experience. This positive experience could then be used to leverage in to new customer sales, building further participation on the forum, and leading to a win-win for all of us. Seems a pretty clear path/progression to me. I am sorry, and sad, to see that it appears Mikini is no "on board" with such an approach.

I am glad I don't have to call Ford any time I have an issue with my truck. I can troubleshoot on my own, I can go online and learn a ton, I can make modifications as I want to, and I can even blow the motor all on my own if I do something wrong. At the end of the day, I can then even take it to a Ford certified dealer if I want to, and pay them to fix all my screwups. That's the "relationship" I want to have with the OEM of whatever I buy, whether it is a truck or a CNC machine. I don't see them differently.

[MIKINI MECH]

Great, thanks for the input.

Please see dedicated thread on the topic. We would greatly appreciate further input.

Mikini Mechatronics, LLC

I'm interested in seeing a real CNC lathe to match the 1610L.

Thanks!
Andrew

[MIKINI MECH]

Great, if you have the time, we'd love the input.

Manufacturer and part number should be all we'll need.

Mikini Mechatronics, LLC

I just did a search on Ebay for proximity switches. Then narrowed my search to bring up the lowest cost items first. You'll find a slew of switches in various configs. Mind you, theese are from China, but, I feel the Onron's are made there too. It's been a while since I made the transsition, but i'm pretty sure I used an NPN switch.

If I have some time I'll pull one out and double check.

[jid2]

I had a long post, but I'm going to shorten it.

I'm looking for a CNC machine of this size and capability to use at work, which is a world class product development and design firm. This machine is very well put together on paper and has excellent details. Great work on that.

But, you appear to have a quality control issue with your electronics, the ESD bag comment was insightful by one user, everyone uses them, they are pink, you put electronics in them - period. If you are not doing that, what else are you missing.

Your posture on this forum is defensive, and paranoid. I'm sure you have only good intentions, but this is how you are being perceived. These places are valuable ways to help promote and let the user base provide free support for each other. But they need a foundation of technical information and cooperation. I agree that you are talking - but adding no value to this section. Value is what people are interested in buying into.

Please don't get even more defensive. Simply answer peoples questions and share details about the machines that will help users keep them running and building cool stuff. The reference to the Tormach section is a very good one.

Best of luck in the new year, the machine does look very nice.

[MIKINI MECH]

Great, happy to help. We're here to provide just what you request in service in regards to your truck, and will be more helpful than most "dealerships" would be with information, within the limitations of our liability policy.

If you contact us with a service request, we'll gladly help you troubleshoot your standard spindle servo drive, and if needed perform a bench test and load verification. We don't require our customers to do so other than very simplistic tests (operational tests and notation of load at idle for example). Analysis of a servo drive is a fundamentally complex task, especially a high speed, high data rate, brushless one. Working around the operating DC bus also requires great caution.

Note that there is no charge for drive service in warranty, and we've done so for owners of second hand machines and out of warranty machines at no charge as well as a customer service.

A point of information :

It's highly likely that you're witnessing low power at low speed vs low torque at low speed. Totally different issue. It's clear some users expect ~ 3 HP at low RPM from attempted applications. This is inconsistent with documentation in every user's guide of torque limits.

Low speed, high torque (relative to it's torque at maximum speed) is not what any modern machining center drive does (This is more like a drill/tap center with a transmission and specific machine configuration). If you somehow managed to get this by modifying one of our machines, which we specifically prohibit, you'll rip the machine apart in a short period of time. Machine structures, bearings, and systems are sized to thrusts and torques, not constant power.

In layman's terms - High precision, high speed, high resolution, servo drive machining centers are not drilling centers or presses - and have very substantial drive and structure/component differences. (you'd also rip apart a 4000 lb, $60,000 machine, if modified in a similar manner for reference). Something like trying to use a 400 HP ford raptor F150 to do what a 400 HP peterbuilt is intended to do to get back to your truck note.

That said - on to the troubleshooting request for information. Note that this information is specifically intended only for use in troubleshooting :

An important safety note before continuing. DC is far more dangerous than AC. If you make a mistake working around the DC high voltage bus, it likely will be lethal. No second chances here like ~200VAC.

We'll reiterate in industrial compliant terms DANGER: DC high voltage is lethal. Be sure to have proper training and equipment if you choose to work around it. Do your research, and be fully trained and informed before attempting ANY work around these systems.

If you're interested in troubleshooting your drive individually, we'll also gladly assist you to do so as offered. It will require some very complex and high rate multi channel, high rate, monitoring equipment. You'll need to know voltage and current simultaneously for more than 10 channels of data, as well as data recording of an adjustable load and resultant RPM. If you have such equipment available, we'll help you to configure it.

An important note - you'll need a drive and motor system operating to test. Servo drives will not operate without closed loop feedback. Unlike an open loop AC VFD for example used in our high speed system, you can't just "turn on" a servo drive without a motor load, and correlating feedback signal. If you attempt to start a drive without proper connections (partially connected), you can defeat motor fault protections and destroy the drive output section instantly (but the drive's processor will know all about how it died ...)

So, in short you'll need to monitor :

- DC, 3 phases, voltage and current, from 0-320 volts, 0-30 amps peak.

- DC, 3 channels of sensor (hall) feedback and bus (5V) (common signal ground)

- AC, input, 2 lines to ground, 0-30 amps peak, 110V nominal each / 220V across.

- Earth Ground current (high rate)

- Motor case temp (low rate)

- Drive sink temp (low rate)

- Resultant RPM

- Variable Torque load capable of sinking 3.5 ft lbs at 5000 rpm continuous and peak loads of 7 ft lbs. (known/monitored brake load of ~ 2500 watts or better roughly and 4kw peak). This also needs to be low inertia and continuous but variable torque (5 lbs additional inertia or less).

Note that changing the rotary inertia on the drive, above maximum spec tool weight, could destroy the spindle and machine bearings if tested on the machine (as well as being hard on the motor and drive) - depending on other variables (rate of load, etc). Even 5 extra lbs of spinning mass has a huge effect. Using for example a 56 frame device that had ~ 25 lbs of rotating mass to absorb / transmit energy would be very destructive. Note that even a machining center of twice the size/structure/power may not be specified at 10 lb tool weight.

When setting up your tests, remember your monitoring needs to be fully isolated, and simultaneous to get the whole picture. Also note that these servo drives vary multiple variables simultaneously, per phase, to achieve the output regulation, so just looking at one channel, or phase, per time is not sufficient. This is several times more complex than say an "advanced" sensor-less 3 phase VFD, or brushed servo drive. In short, this is why the "noise" changes as the drive is loaded and unloaded. Think of it like a modern vehicle on cruise control going up and down hills, shifting, braking, and all the time protecting the vehicles systems.

Averaging or isolating any variable, such as voltage, frequency, or current, at low rate (even a few times a second) will not suffice to determine the whole picture either and likely will be very mis-leading. Additionally, To catch transients, data rates on electrical signals need to exceed 4 mhz per channel on the DC power & signal side (Signal rates approach 400 hz and you'll need to understand what is happening at this rate - so roughly 10x as fast).

In regards to questions about the motor :

Motors are Nema 48 frame and are custom wound.
2008 drives use 8 pole motors operating at 3500 RPM
2009-2011 drives use 4 pole motors operating at 5000 RPM

Also note that per your previous request, the front page of our website details the standard BLDC spindle development and manufacturing, and has done so since 2009.

For 2009-2011 1610L standard motors, Peak motor current is 30 amps. Peak rated continuous RPM is 6000 (we de-rate). Peak voltage is 320 VDC. Motor variables and winding is proprietary, and not required for troubleshooting.

There are 2 simple motor checks to perform however to troubleshoot :

1) output of the sensor feedback. Our 2009-2011 drives have red LED's, near the sensor connector, which give instant feedback without needing additional test equipment. All 3 sensors need to activate and de-activate properly as the motor rotates. At high rates, all three LED's will appear to be "on" but blinking at a very high rate.

2) Phase continuity - all three phases should be continuous. If not, you have a burned out phase (not common unless the motor has been run far over load/duty cycle and more or less melted).

Note that we have also built semi-custom -L servo drive machines of higher and lower RPM per customer specification as well (for applications such as working with ceramic materials).

Remember that AC and DC drives (standard and high speed) are not output / connection fault protected (and basically can't be in most cases) for protection against reverse polarity to DC or back feeding of current to signal lines between the motor and drive, or dead short in some configurations of cases. If your monitoring equipment causes a ground loop, you'll destroy at least the drive, and possibly the motor position (hall) sensor device, and possibly test equipment (some devices are not protected up to 320 volts DC at the amounts of current available). Pretty tough to destroy a motor phase, but it's also possible.

We pass along cost of our drives and parts, as with limit switches. 2012 pricing/cost for a standard -L spindle servo drive is $1345 USD, and has a core requirement. Motors are priced at $1085 and also require a core.

Realize that if we get a warranty claim, without additional data, that a motor or drive has been destroyed for a fault within this sub-system (between the motor and drive), we'll likely have to decline it. 2009-2011 drives are very, very well protected, if you operate/connect as intended.

We'll post some of the data on standard spindle drive performance for review, relative to similarly sized drive systems of other types that we have tested using the same equipment on our machines. Note that there are "graphs" out there regarding spindle performance that are mis-leading, likely due to lack of data on the particular components, sizes, and values being presented.

If it's of interest, we can also post some information on the fundamentals of drive technology and input signals, such as what the differences between an AC and DC servo, various types of open loop drives, etc. Very complex topic

Lastly, to comprehensively document the nature of events, we suggest you'll need about 100 hours of data, which is what we do in bench tests for spindle drive consistency. We suggest starting and stopping on a 20 minute cycle at 67% duty, and performing tests at at least 5 points of load and RPM (25 total points). Ideally, it helps to do so with an automated device.

We know a Ton about various drive and control systems, and more than happy to share, everything that isn't proprietary about how we produce or the exacting specifics that would be required to replicate our systems. We've got far too much time and money invested, and drive system finite detail specifics are a critical piece of core intellectual property that allows our machines to perform to the levels they do. No different for your new Ford truck, and it's components, for that matter.

Any luck on getting say transmission or ECU internal schematics and firmware from Ford ? Free dyno test ? (Just trying to keep it light and entertaining having been there ourselves on various other projects over the years ... please don't take offense.)

Let us know how we can help further.

To all - Have a great weekend - Be safe - Be productive (or not if that's the goal).

Mikini Mechatronics, LLC

I am trying to troubleshoot speed dropping issues at low speed and low torque operation at low speed. I have NO interest in reverse engineering your drive. Truly. I am curious, and I am motivated, and I will figure it out on my own if I have to. But you are committed to your customers, and you want to be as open source as possible, so I thought I would give you a chance to help out your customer base. How about it?

Once again, can you provide the following specs on the spindle motor:

Resistance, in Ohms
Inductance, in milli-Henry
Ke - Peak, in Volts per 1000 RPM
Rated Current - Peak, in Amps
Number of Poles

Thanks in advance.

[MIKINI MECH]

Great feedback.

We fully understand the perception given by the complex limitations we have to work within. It's in our opinion, an unfortunate reality of the society we all live within, in this country.

We've also dealt with substantial breaches of intellectual property, within the industry in the past, as well as liability issues. In short, we've been there. For those manufacturers and companies who haven't in any industry, it's only a matter of time.

There are a huge number of assertions on these forums in regards to our organization (and we'll suggest, on any internet site, about any manufacturer, of nearly anything) that are either partially or wholly untrue. In many cases, we have email or hard documentation, directly to users that we could post to dispute exaggerations of facts. We don't believe it is professional, expected, or our place, to do so. Nor will you find Ford doing so - to continue the analogy used by another user. We're more than happy to help with any information that is helpful and of value.

We're not perfect, but we do strive to exceed industry norms, expectations and goals.

For example on ESD protection - There are years of history on the subject in our organization. We have and do use USD protective devices, storage and transport devices, and coatings on all of our electronics, since the inception of manufacturing. We did use ESD protective packing materials on customer warranty service claims for an extended period. We then split service shipments into "re-packed" and "returned as received", and analyzed the results, which were nearly unaffected. We've gone to re-packed across the board for warranty service, and as noted, are considering going back to re-packing, or perhaps even a call tag process in the future.

We would like to provide as much value to our customers, and the industry, as possible. We're all ears on what subjects, topics, improvements, etc, would do so. We encourage the long post if you have it.

Not attempting to be defensive in any way. Certain information we can share, and will gladly do so. Other information we can't, nor would any organization in our position. Not defensive, just the facts and limitations of our society.

Mikini Mechatronics, LLC

I had a long post, but I'm going to shorten it.

I'm looking for a CNC machine of this size and capability to use at work, which is a world class product development and design firm. This machine is very well put together on paper and has excellent details. Great work on that.

But, you appear to have a quality control issue with your electronics, the ESD bag comment was insightful by one user, everyone uses them, they are pink, you put electronics in them - period. If you are not doing that, what else are you missing.

Your posture on this forum is defensive, and paranoid. I'm sure you have only good intentions, but this is how you are being perceived. These places are valuable ways to help promote and let the user base provide free support for each other. But they need a foundation of technical information and cooperation. I agree that you are talking - but adding no value to this section. Value is what people are interested in buying into.

Please don't get even more defensive. Simply answer peoples questions and share details about the machines that will help users keep them running and building cool stuff. The reference to the Tormach section is a very good one.

Best of luck in the new year, the machine does look very nice.