Happy new year from Mikini Mechatronics
Happy new year to the CNC Zone community from Mikini Mechatronics.
We’ve had few requests to publically respond to comments and “straighten out” a few posts on this forum site. It’s not our place, in our opinion, to do so. We are here to help however, and after reading and reviewing many of these threads, we had some thoughts from the team we’d like to share.
1) We’re not perfect.
No manufacturer is (or supplier / company, individual, employee, …is ). However, we make a huge effort to build best in class tools that represent great value, and support them beyond expectations. If there’s an issue, we’re 100% committed to making it right.
2) Early generation machines, were, early generation machines.
Without question, Our first generation (2008 model year) machine drive and control systems proved to be less reliable than intended in customer use. They were based on systems in use to this day by low cost machine tools which had been modified at our direction and design and hardened by our suppliers -intended for industrial use.
Although component failure rates were low and thousands of hours of pre-release tests were performed, cumulative issue rates exceeded our internal standards in the field, especially in regards to overload and overvoltage protection.
We based the V1.0 systems on overload and over-voltage standards of commonly available drives and systems that are used in industrial machine tools today (150% overload for example and a 3HP system based on a 3HP off the shelf chipset). We reacted promptly and by early 2009 new systems were shipping in all 2009 MY machines.
Our second and third generation control and drive systems are clean sheet designs from a supplier of industrial control systems and have proven themselves in years of commercial service, worldwide.
We accomplished this by overbuilding substantially - for example our V2.0 standard spindle drive has a 400% overload, and is rated at 3HP and is based on a 5HP continuous drive system sourced in the USA). It’s nearly impossible to kill one of our second generation servo drives by overloading. Don’t take our word for it - our users document (online, directly, and in firmware results) that they apparently “try” on a fairly frequent basis – and have done so for years.
(boy, I hate to think how some of our users drive a standard transmission car).- Mostly kidding - turns out this is the reality of automated industrial tools - at least in this particular case)
3) Generally speaking, it's easier to find the complaints than real story.
Results show the systemic reliability of our Mikini V2.0 control and drive systems from 2009-2011 exceeds that of highly recognized industrial automation systems in use today from some of the largest suppliers in the world in our testing. In short, we’re extremely confident of our machines, and sub systems, performance and reliability. And we're not stopping here.
4) We continually work on improvements
We continue to “hunt” for higher performing and more reliable components, at reasonable costs. One of the “nagging” issues for any enclosed machining center (or severe duty automated IP54 + rated device) is electrical switch performance and reliability (in our case limit switches). We use Omron industrial switches, and are looking for better (though the same switches are used on $125,000 dollar class machines) . With 9 switches per machine, the chance for failure is greatly increased. Got ideas, let us know. We’re continually testing new switches.
5) We're 100% committed to our products and users.
We stood, and stand, behind all users and operators of all machine tools we have built to this day. For owners and operators of 2008 MY machines we extended warranty service to these at no additional cost, with no questions, years beyond term.
6) Be discriminating
Don’t believe everything you read or hear – good, bad, or indifferent. This is especially true online. There are a huge number of inaccurate statements from un-informed users of machine tools (independent of our machine or any other, inaccurate statements regarding fundamental issues such as power, torque, loading and machining calculations). Many of the threads here bear out these inaccuracies, others do not. It is our policy not to correct these in public forum. Feel free to contact us, or verify with any accredited source, these facts.
7) Learn as much as you can - Don't assume
Seek out as many sources of truly informed knowledge as possible. Be very wary of information from anonymous sources, or sources without (or weak) credentials. Don't make assumptions, or at least verify them once made.
8) Learning, especially self guided, is tough.
Be fully aware that attempting to operate any professional use tool, including a CNC machining center, without proper (comprehensive) training and understanding of system limitations and performance will be a challenging, and often times expensive, process. Even with proper and comprehensive knowledge (which takes thousands of man hours to aquire), expect some things to be challenging none the less. True for all sorts of professions.
9) We make a huge effort to remain customer focused.
We welcome and encourage users to get in touch with us at any time with questions, comments or recommendations.
10) Further to this ...
Tell us what you want. We’re strongly considering producing a machine (configuration of the 1610 platform) aimed at a segment of the market between the 1610L and bench-top machine for 2013, with lower longevity, cost, and features than the 1610L. We believe it would be suitable for most applications documented in these forums, and welcome input. Food for thought - if we get lots of input we'll make it a dedicated thread :
- Do you really need tenths absolute accuracy, or is say 1 thou ok ? Or does a benchtop more or less do what you need at 2-5 thou ? How important are thermal fits and other high precision applications ?
- How important is surface finish, relative to material removal performance ?
- How important is bearing life – is 2500 hours reasonable ? (out tests show some benchtops only go 500 or so hours, and the -L uses 5000 hour rated systems). Note that 2500 hours would be 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, for well over a year of operation.
- How important is industrial safety compliance performance ? Is it okay to allow safety systems to be controlled by control software in your application ? Okay to take 3 seconds to shut down a machine or process ? Okay to be shutdown compliant 99.0 % of the time, not 99.9% ?
- How important are “accessories” – flood cooling, lighting, tooling shelves, trim, pendant control, etc ? (All standards on the 1610L)
Be Safe and Productive in 2012.
- Mikini Mechatronics, LLC
Watsonville, California, USA
Similar Threads:
Ahhhhh, still suffering from delusions of grandeur. Here is some advise, when posting on these forums, please post something constructive, something of value...a tip..maybe a how to..or maybe some schematics....But please do not come here tooting your horn, and insulting folks who happen to be hobbyist and to say that they are not capable of running your "Industrial Machine".
pete
Oops
Our great apologies - didn't mean to insult anyone, and was trying to help.
Happy to assist - Any direct requests for particular how to's, tips, or information ?
Seems like spindle loading and performance is a topic (regarding our machines and many others in fact). Fair to assume this would be a welcome topic ?
Our last post was the direct result of a specific request to reply, as noted.
Also happy to not assist or post in these forums if this is requested and the consensus of the forum users.
We've also asked directly for input, if anyone wishes to share, on what their ideal machine would be. All thoughts are welcomed.
Again, Happy new year.
- Mikini Mechatronics, LLC
Watsonville, California, USA
Originally Posted by slowtwitch
I for one encourage Mikini to get involved in the topics on this forum. Some of you may be hobbyists but that is no reason to not be professional. They are offering help and asking for input. What more could you ask for?
I have not ever waited long for a response when I have needed help or feedback. That includes weekends.
I also had a conversation with Greg Jackson from Tormach this week and we talked briefly about the Mikini. During that conversation Greg did say that of all Tormach's competitors Phil Cowley was the brightest one of all of them and thought he has really good intentions for his customers.
I have given Phil my thoughts on what could be better or different, maybe you guys should too.
I too encourage Mikini to post useful information....never said not to. I have told Mikini about thier issues...I have suggested ideas...
Let's start with some useful information.....How about we start with this one.... What is the pin out of the db9 connector from the spindle board to the main board??? May be helpful to some....
pete
Here are some of my initial thoughts...
If it is not your place, who's is it?! Mikini IS the expert, if you look on the other forums most have posts from tech people in the company that is the topic of the forum. Many of the forums are even sponsored (with $!) by the company that is the topic of the forum. I can't understand why Mikini is not responding to each and every thread - there really are not that many...
Do you communicate any improvements, or do each of use need to contact you individually to get an update on what they are?
How do you demonstrate this commitment? I agree Phil is very helpful 1-on-1 on a phone call, but that is a VERY inefficient use of his (and each of our) time!
What kind of policy is that? That stinks! You know incorrect statements are made and knowingly decline to correct it? That's almost a bad as knowingly spreading mis-information in my opinion. I really don't understand the stance that Mikini takes to sharing information. Why the "secrets"? Why not share more info? Why not post solutions for all to see?
There is ONLY ONE informed source on this machine, and they have clearly stated that they don't want to post solutions in a public forum... Crazy isn't it!
- A MUCH better manual.
- Detailed information on each of the components in the machine.
- An updated website.
- FULL participation in a forum, somewhere. If not here, make one somewhere (on your own website?) that you can keep under control if you feel the need)
- Updates on fixes that are ongoing to the design or to others machines
- New products
- Accurate descriptions on the website (my vise was not what was pictured, the fourth axis isn't pictured -I got info from another user, etc.)
That's my 2 cents... I may have more once I "think on it"...
CAD, CAM, Scanning, Modelling, Machining...
Firmware and internal pinouts
Regarding posting internal pinouts - Seemingly simple request, and wish we could do exactly as requested. It's on a big poster in the shop along with the other definitions for manufacturing and service.
Let's start with some useful information.....How about we start with this one.... What is the pin out of the db9 connector from the spindle board to the main board??? May be helpful to some....[/QUOTE]
- We do have a pretty simple answer though [I]- Call us (see below for the long answer why we have to have you call).
We can also re-iterate what is on our specification sheets, which is the fact that our systems use PWM control for the spindle.
Happy to help as much as possible, but our hands are regrettably tied on publishing machine internal firmware, and internal control system inter-ties, as well as a handful of other information.
Schematics (Page 25 most cases), exploded views (Throughout), definitions, inputs and outputs are fully defined in the operators manuals, and labeled on the circuit boards and cabling on all 2009 forward control systems. This provides comprehensive information to input or output anything to or from the machine as originally manufactured and defined. We intend to build machines and systems that are as open source as possible in today's world.
Most other machine manufactures publish and label/document far less information, or even totally lock down the software for interfacing, and the signals into and out-of machines. Go take a look at just about any other machine and machine documents and then take another look at our systems.
Once within the control system, internal signals, printed circuit board layouts, and cabling schematics are considered proprietary information by the definitions we have to work within as a manufacturer.
This said give us a call - we'll gladly help you out to "troubleshoot" your system which we can, and frequently do, as a course of business. Just don't say a word about modifying anything, or requesting anything that could be construed as us "supporting" or "condoning" modifications - or use outside of "intended use" and we're good from our end.
Also note that we build semi and fully custom solutions for our machines frequently. Need help with a project - again - give us a call. Again, we're here to help and support our users 100%.
Note that there are substantial forces at work here, outside of our organization, that restrict our actions (and those of any professional manufacturer of goods and their respective suppliers).
Also note that the modifications documented to our machine tools on these forums expose owners to substantial liability from anyone who operates the machine tool in the future - even if you "don't think so". They also could present substantial liability to those who have documented and posted the information supporting these actions - no kidding.
In some cases when not dealing with insurance and/or facilities regulations and there is no intention of resale or other than owner operation, and a machine is being operated in a wholly owned facility (read no banks => insurance involved) - it might be a reasonable risk that is incurred, as determined by the owner. However, it's not something to be taken at all lightly, ever. Don't take our word for it - call someone who can advise you.
Sorry - wish we lived in a different society as it relates to these issues .... Seriously - we're machine builders & engineers - not lawyers - and only deal with these issued because we absolutely have to. We would do nearly anything not to have to deal with this "stuff"
Keep the requests and input coming - we're here to help.
Mikini Mechatronics, LLC
mcphill:
Thanks for the comments - detailed post, see comments below
If it is not your place, who's is it?! Mikini IS the expert, if you look on the other forums most have posts from tech people in the company that is the topic of the forum. Many of the forums are even sponsored (with $!) by the company that is the topic of the forum. I can't understand why Mikini is not responding to each and every thread - there really are not that many...
We're happy to, if requested
Do you communicate any improvements, or do each of use need to contact you individually to get an update on what they are?
Give us a call, or we're happy to communicate in any medium you wish - be it this site, our site, email, phone, etc
How do you demonstrate this commitment? I agree Phil is very helpful 1-on-1 on a phone call, but that is a VERY inefficient use of his (and each of our) time!
Have a proposal for more efficient customer service than direct, same day communication ?
What kind of policy is that? That stinks! You know incorrect statements are made and knowingly decline to correct it? That's almost a bad as knowingly spreading mis-information in my opinion. I really don't understand the stance that Mikini takes to sharing information. Why the "secrets"? Why not share more info? Why not post solutions for all to see?
It's not our place to act in this manner, in general. We're more than happy to share as much information as needed, within the restrictions the society places businesses (and individuals) in today. If the general agreement of the forum user's here is that we should be active and correcting user's statements, we're glad to assist. This has not seemed to be the case, to date
There is ONLY ONE informed source on this machine, and they have clearly stated that they don't want to post solutions in a public forum... Crazy isn't it!
We're happy to post, just ask
- A MUCH better manual.
Do you have specific requests for what would be better in the manual itself ? We also have expanded pre-rigging and installation guides for 2012 machines, and are working on a "tips, tricks and hints" guide for new operators with helpful information that is not machine specific - where to get supplies, common questions, etc.- Detailed information on each of the components in the machine.
what form of detail as it relates to machine operation ?- An updated website.
On it's way... soon. Look forward to some interesting information on machine design principals and systemic and component performance- FULL participation in a forum, somewhere. If not here, make one somewhere (on your own website?) that you can keep under control if you feel the need)
We're happy to be present in this forum, if welcomed. We have not been welcomed in the past from some users. Our new site does not include a forum, but happy to entertain that as well- Updates on fixes that are ongoing to the design or to others machines
The mechanical design of the machine has remained unchanged since inception, and the electrical systems since 2009. 2012 MY machines will have minor differences which don't affect specifications, which will be on the new site.- New products
What's on your wish list ? We're all ears- Accurate descriptions on the website (my vise was not what was pictured, the fourth axis isn't pictured -I got info from another user, etc.)
Coming very soon on the new site
That's my 2 cents... I may have more once I "think on it"...[/QUOTE]
Great - keep it coming
We'll also post some of the new information in this forum, again, if welcomed by Consensus.
-Mikini Mechatronics, LLC
I'm interested in seeing a real CNC lathe to match the 1610L.
Thanks!
Andrew
This is an open forum, anyone can post what they want. It isn't a democracy and there is not "vetting" of posts. If you can respond to peoples issues and help via this forum, please do it! You don't need permission from ANYONE on this forum... That's kind of the whole point...
If you want votes, I vote less rationalization and more INFORMATION...
CAD, CAM, Scanning, Modelling, Machining...
Every industrial machine I buy has the cut sheets and OEM information for every item that is built in to it. If you want to be "as open source as possible", how about providing those to your end users? At least for items not designed for Mikini, but even if they were designed for Mikini, providing information is NOT a grounds for liability of misuse or misapplication of that information.
For instance, it was recently posted that the stepper driver boards are from How-Mau CNC. The user kindly posted the document. Why isn't this information available on the Mikini site? Is it a secret? If so, that's not open source at all. If not, why isn't it available?
Who is the spindle from? Who is the spindle board from?
Can you provide the following specs on the spindle motor:
Resistance, in Ohms
Inductance, in milli-Henry
Ke - Peak, in Volts per 1000 RPM
Rated Current - Peak, in Amps
Number of Poles
Thanks in advance.
CAD, CAM, Scanning, Modelling, Machining...
What goal or project do you have in mind ?
- Mikini Mechatronics, LLC
Regarding posting internal pinouts - Seemingly simple request, and wish we could do exactly as requested. It's on a big poster in the shop along with the other definitions for manufacturing and service.
Let's start with some useful information.....How about we start with this one.... What is the pin out of the db9 connector from the spindle board to the main board??? May be helpful to some....
- We do have a pretty simple answer though [I]- Call us (see below for the long answer why we have to have you call).
We can also re-iterate what is on our specification sheets, which is the fact that our systems use PWM control for the spindle.
Mikini Mechatronics, LLC [/QUOTE]
NevermineI'll figure it out myself.
pete
I had a homing switch problem. So, I ordered a new one from Mikini for about $80.00. Sadly, when it arrived it was totally different than the ones in the machine. By that I mean that the physical size was different. I had to make a new mounting plate to get it to work.
When another switch failed, instead of sending $80.00 to Mikini and having to make new mounting setup. I ordered 9 new proximity switches off Ebay for about $6.00 each. They were the same size as the original ones. They have been working smoothly since install. Plus, their repeatabilty is very good.
pete
Could you put up the make and model of the proximity switches you bought?
I would like to check them out and also see what the differences are compare to the originals.
Thanks
Please contact us with details of the switches you've had positive luck with, and the issues you ran into with a switch we supplied.
As noted, we're always looking for better solutions. At over $50 cost each the current switches which have been in use since 2009 (Feel free to look them up on digikey) are not inexpensive.
You're indicating a $6 switch is performing at a level exceeding your needs. To re-iterate - We're very interested in this, please do get in touch with details.
Incidentally, we sell the switches we use for the same cost as digikey - ~ $56, and have done so since starting to use them. Perhaps you had one air-freighted ?
We believe it would also be helpful for users to post the context of a situation regarding machine details and history when commenting on a subject. For example the intended project or part detals, code/tooling/fixture/material in use, model year of the machine and/or serial, and history of use as far as known, location, installation specifics, any special order customization performed, user changes, etc.
-Mikini Mechatronics, LLC
I had a homing switch problem. So, I ordered a new one from Mikini for about $80.00. Sadly, when it arrived it was totally different than the ones in the machine. By that I mean that the physical size was different. I had to make a new mounting plate to get it to work.
When another switch failed, instead of sending $80.00 to Mikini and having to make new mounting setup. I ordered 9 new proximity switches off Ebay for about $6.00 each. They were the same size as the original ones. They have been working smoothly since install. Plus, their repeatabilty is very good.
I just did a search on Ebay for proximity switches. Then narrowed my search to bring up the lowest cost items first. You'll find a slew of switches in various configs. Mind you, theese are from China, but, I feel the Onron's are made there too. It's been a while since I made the transsition, but i'm pretty sure I used an NPN switch.
If I have some time I'll pull one out and double check.
pete
I am trying to troubleshoot speed dropping issues at low speed and low torque operation at low speed. I have NO interest in reverse engineering your drive. Truly. I am curious, and I am motivated, and I will figure it out on my own if I have to. But you are committed to your customers, and you want to be as open source as possible, so I thought I would give you a chance to help out your customer base. How about it?
Once again, can you provide the following specs on the spindle motor:
Resistance, in Ohms
Inductance, in milli-Henry
Ke - Peak, in Volts per 1000 RPM
Rated Current - Peak, in Amps
Number of Poles
Thanks in advance.
CAD, CAM, Scanning, Modelling, Machining...
What will the poster get in exchange for all this information, other than a request to call you directly to get more information? You made about 10 (I didn't count, so if it is 7, you can go ahead and call me out for spreading more misinformation) posts in the last 12 hours and I don't believe you have provided any new information yet - other than the price you charge for the limit switches. Is that right? In that same time, you have requested NUMEROUS times that posters contact you directly to discuss further. Maybe you don't understand the whole point of a forum. It is for OPEN EXCHANGE of information, and it is here to document for all to see and for all to learn from. This way, if a user has a similar problem in the future, they can attempt to learn about and potentially fix an issue without having to get in touch with Mikini on what may be a common issue. It is a learning opportunity for the end user, and it is becoming clear it is a learning opportunity for Mikini as well.
May I suggest Mikini go to the Tormach forum, and observe how that company is able to interact with its customer base to provide a healthy dialog and open exchange of information? Tormach PCNC - CNCzone.com-The Largest Machinist Community on the net!
There you can see that instead of "call use so we can talk 1:1", Tormach takes the approach of opening up and almost "sponsoring" end users helping each other!
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/mentor...tml#post681115
If you want to see more of their interactions directly with their end users, have a look at their individual posts:
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/search...archid=7256150
Now, clearly the number of users on the Tormach forum is a goldmine for them as well. They have MANY users posting and many different users at different skill and competence levels. But guess what, it isn't just a goldmine for Tormach, it is also a goldmine for Tormach's end users. Their users are providing each other troubleshooting, upgrade, and improvement information (without the fear of the liability issues that Mikini seems to have). This is the type of exchange that I would love to have on this board, and the reason that I had the CNC Admins set up this area specifically for Mikini. It is also the reason I pointed Mikini to this forum - to assist its customer base and provide a positive experience. This positive experience could then be used to leverage in to new customer sales, building further participation on the forum, and leading to a win-win for all of us. Seems a pretty clear path/progression to me. I am sorry, and sad, to see that it appears Mikini is no "on board" with such an approach.
I am glad I don't have to call Ford any time I have an issue with my truck. I can troubleshoot on my own, I can go online and learn a ton, I can make modifications as I want to, and I can even blow the motor all on my own if I do something wrong. At the end of the day, I can then even take it to a Ford certified dealer if I want to, and pay them to fix all my screwups. That's the "relationship" I want to have with the OEM of whatever I buy, whether it is a truck or a CNC machine. I don't see them differently.
CAD, CAM, Scanning, Modelling, Machining...
Great, thanks for the input.
Please see dedicated thread on the topic. We would greatly appreciate further input.
Mikini Mechatronics, LLC
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