Newbie - how do I find a CNC shop that would deal with individuals? Please help!

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Thread: Newbie - how do I find a CNC shop that would deal with individuals? Please help!

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    Default Newbie - how do I find a CNC shop that would deal with individuals? Please help!

    Hello CNC Zoners! I'm trying to have a couple of parts made (for my uncle who is an inventor/enterpreneur). The part has a complex profile - basically a cylinder, with a rather complex 3D-shaped groove cut into its outer surface. I'm a computer programmer, so I wrote a program that calculated all the coordinates and generated an .STL file for it. The shape is complex enough to need something like a 4-5 axis turning CNC machine. We prototyped it using a 3D-printer, and now it's time for a hardened steel version. The parts aren't that big, 2" thick and 4.4" in diameter.

    So, we put together a draft with all the sizes and tolerances, added the .stl file for the complex surface, and I tried placing an order with a machine shop (plenty of those in Michigan, so I picked the closest one). The reply was an immediate "we can't do it" with no explanation - and the shop advertises some very advanced equipment on their site (starting with a "CNC 2011 Mazak 5 Axis Integrex J-300 Multitasking Turning & Milling Center"). They also list a huge portfolio of materials, so I doubt the reasons were technological. Another shop's site says right off the bat that they will only deal with, as they put it, "manufacturers who are in business for over 10 years and have over 25 millions in annual sales."

    Any tips on how I could find a machine shop that would take my money? So far, I've been googling for shops that advertise "CNC turning 4+ axis" machines nearby (I'd prefer to deal locally, though I'm not dead-set on it). Am I approaching this wrong? Is it realistic to hope that a CNC shop will take an order for under a grand?

    Thank you for any tips!

    Boris

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    Default Re: Newbie - how do I find a CNC shop that would deal with individuals? Please help!

    Most machine shops are only interested in customers that will be ordering large numbers of parts from them, so they can make money. It's difficult to make money off one-off prototypes or small runs; it takes a while to work out the problems in a complex machined part so that it can be produced smoothly. You might be better off looking for shops that specialize in prototyping, instead of going directly to production-oriented shops.

    Another problem is your STL file. Most machine shops don't know how to deal with mesh files (although it's possible to machine from them with some kinds of CAM software). If you gave them an IGES file, they might be more receptive.

    [FONT=Verdana]Andrew Werby[/FONT]
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    Default Re: Newbie - how do I find a CNC shop that would deal with individuals? Please help!

    Thank you for your reply Andrew! It makes sense. Both places listed "prototyping" services, but maybe they're not exactly geared for them. I'll keep looking.

    Also, thank you for the info on the IGES file format. I'm looking into it. Perhaps I can modify my program to output IGES - currently, it's limited to STL and DXF, but IGES looks to be a lot more complex format than STL. Maybe I'll just download a third-party converter.

    Again, thank you so much!

    Boris

    Update: Turns out, STL-to-IGES conversion is tricky. There are tools out there that do it automatically (for example, BRL-CAD | Open Source Solid Modeling inculdes command-line converters from STL and to IGES), but the resulting IGES files are huge - I canceled the program when output became over 2 Gigabytes. May have to do it manually after all...

    Last edited by Boris123; 05-21-2014 at 05:51 PM.


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    Default Re: Newbie - how do I find a CNC shop that would deal with individuals? Please help!

    What program are you doing your original modeling in? Unless it's a mesh-only modeler (which would be a poor choice for a part like you describe) you can probably save as IGES instead of STL. It's a lot more difficult to translate a STL into IGES, as you've discovered.

    [FONT=Verdana]Andrew Werby[/FONT]
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    Default Re: Newbie - how do I find a CNC shop that would deal with individuals? Please help!

    I wrote the program myself, in C, so it only generates the two file formats that I implemented. The surface is generated by rotating a straight segment around three axis simultaneously, so it does not fit any built-in shape like a cylinder or a cone. Don't know how to represent it by anything other than a mesh - which means that the file will still be too large to open in CAD. Also, from what I noticed today when looking at IGES file spec, it might forse me to change the order of the generation, making the program much more complex.

    There's one possibility though - the spec describes two versions of IGES format, a plain text and "compressed" (it isn't really compressed, but uses much less room to store the same data). Maybe the converter I tried used a plain text version - I haven't looked. Will check on that tomorrow.

    Thank you again!

    Boris



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    Default Re: Newbie - how do I find a CNC shop that would deal with individuals? Please help!

    You don't want to convert an .stl to iges, as the end result will be the same. What you really need is an iges file that contains the mathematical data to describe the surface. That's what most high end CAM programs like, not triangular meshes.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: Newbie - how do I find a CNC shop that would deal with individuals? Please help!

    Thank you for your reply Gerry!

    Problem is, I don't think there's a way to store my "mathematical data" into a file (CAD, STL, or any other) in any form other than a set of triangles. When my program generates a .dxf file, it's still a bunch of triangles, each of them a "3DFACE". I don't think it's all that different from what an automatic conversion tool would do. And the CAD viewers that I tried, nearly choke on the files I generate - the files take forever to load, and any operation like panning or zooming is very slow. The STL viewer, on the other hand, has no problem with the same data. So either I'm not using .DXF format correctly (which is quite possible), or the file format is not suitable for surfaces of this type.

    Actually, I was hoping that there's software (like the "slicers" in 3D-printing world) that could look at my STL file and generate G-code with the paths for the cutting tools. Which is why I concentrated on .STL file format to begin with. But if that was the case, people wouldn't be so adamant on using the CAD files, which wouldn't be useful for an automated tool like a slicer program. So maybe things are not as simple as I had hoped.

    Thank you so much!

    Boris



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    Default Re: Newbie - how do I find a CNC shop that would deal with individuals? Please help!

    If your home-made algorithmic program will only generate meshes, then it seems that you'll have to restrict your search to shops that can deal with mesh files. There are high-end CAM programs that can handle them; VisualMill by Mecsoft is one of them, which has 4 and 5-axis versions. You might give Mecsoft a call and ask if they can recommend a customer of theirs who might be willing to take on a small job like yours. You could also post a RFQ here on CNCZone, stating what sort of file you've got, how many of these things you want to make in what material, with what heat-treating, to which tolerances, etc..

    [FONT=Verdana]Andrew Werby[/FONT]
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    Default Re: Newbie - how do I find a CNC shop that would deal with individuals? Please help!

    Do you have any kind of drawing that we can see? Would help out a lot to see what's going on. Also just because u had something 3D printed doesn't mean it can be machined... And also it sounds like u need this to be designed in proper CAD software. Meshes are just no good for modeling. Perhaps ur file is so large because you made the triangles so small that it produces a huge program?



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    Default Re: Newbie - how do I find a CNC shop that would deal with individuals? Please help!

    We use both NX and Inventor. I have used Inventor to convert point cloud files .stl to solids for our CAM system. The reason the J300 integrex cant do it is because it is not 5 axis simultaneous. The B axis is indexing only not contouring. If you find a shop in your area that has 5 axis simultaneous multitasking machine and runs inventor or similar modeling software that can convert your point cloud and also has a cam system with a 5 axis post for their multitasking machine you will be able to get a quote.

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    Default Re: Newbie - how do I find a CNC shop that would deal with individuals? Please help!

    A few thoughts:

    As others have said, STLs are basically the worst. I do cad and one off prototyping for people all day, and STLs are basically only good for 3D printing. And converting them or modifying them can be just as much of a pain.

    Maybe you could look into DMLS (direct metal laser sintering), or metal injection molding? There are online vendors for both (shapeways, quickparts, protomold, etc.)


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    Default Re: Newbie - how do I find a CNC shop that would deal with individuals? Please help!

    Hello NodecoMachine! Here's what it looks like:
    Newbie - how do I find a CNC shop that would deal with individuals? Please help!-closeup-png

    After some research, I think the issue is that the surface can't be easily represented by a combination of basic geometric shapes such as a cylinder, cube, or a cone. Non-mesh-based software has to use a huge number of small shapes to represent it, so the converted files become huge and useless (the normal tools can't do anything with them). Looks like the only way forward for me is to search for companies with software that support mesh-based surfaces, which probably excludes a lot of smaller CNC shops.

    [edit]: Here's a closer look:
    Newbie - how do I find a CNC shop that would deal with individuals? Please help!-closeup2-png

    Last edited by Boris123; 05-22-2014 at 10:44 PM. Reason: Added a second image


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    Default Re: Newbie - how do I find a CNC shop that would deal with individuals? Please help!

    Hello Averby! Thank you so much for your advice. After some research, it looks like that's what I need - to find a machine shop that uses software that can work with meshes.

    Boris



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    Default Re: Newbie - how do I find a CNC shop that would deal with individuals? Please help!

    Hello Alexhawker!

    Metal laser sintering is nice and exciting, but they're way out of my league budget-wise. I'll need to read up on the other methods, but I don't think they can injection mold tooling-quality hardened steel (and DMLS is not quite there yet, though they are getting closer).

    Thank you so much!

    Boris



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    Default Re: Newbie - how do I find a CNC shop that would deal with individuals? Please help!

    I think your surfaces can still be represented in NURBS-based (non-mesh) programs. These programs are not only limited to cylindrical/conical/spherical/prismatic geometry - those are just the basic tools

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Boris123 View Post
    Hello Alexhawker!

    Metal laser sintering is nice and exciting, but they're way out of my league budget-wise. I'll need to read up on the other methods, but I don't think they can injection mold tooling-quality hardened steel (and DMLS is not quite there yet, though they are getting closer).

    Thank you so much!

    Boris
    No offense, but odds are if you can't afford DMLS, you may find 5-axis CNC similarly cost-prohibitive.



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    Default Re: Newbie - how do I find a CNC shop that would deal with individuals? Please help!

    Now that I have seen the pics you do realize that internal sharp corners cannot be machined. We could do this in our integrex machines and then finish the internal shape on our 4 axis sink EDM. We would be around $10K for an off the street customer. So you have a price comparison.

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    Default Re: Newbie - how do I find a CNC shop that would deal with individuals? Please help!

    [QUOTE=alexhawker;1491506]I think your surfaces can still be represented in NURBS-based (non-mesh) programs. These programs are not only limited to cylindrical/conical/spherical/prismatic geometry - those are just the basic tools. [...] No offense, but odds are if you can't afford DMLS, you may find 5-axis CNC similarly cost-prohibitive.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Nothing offensive about giving people helpful information. Perhaps I spoke too soon - I was under the impression there were something like fifty DMLS machines in the entire world, and little players like NASA have to wait for months to get an order filled. I'll look into this. Still, every project has a budget, and there's a price point above which this just won't make sense.

    I did forget about using B-splines, too. it should be possible to reduce the number of points drastically. Might take me a while to convert the program though.

    Thank you for the good advice!

    Last edited by Boris123; 05-22-2014 at 11:35 PM. Reason: Added quote


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    Default Re: Newbie - how do I find a CNC shop that would deal with individuals? Please help!

    Quote Originally Posted by murrayclair View Post
    Now that I have seen the pics you do realize that internal sharp corners cannot be machined. We could do this in our integrex machines and then finish the internal shape on our 4 axis sink EDM. We would be around $10K for an off the street customer. So you have a price comparison.

    Sent from my GT-I9305T using Tapatalk
    Thank you so much for the information!



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    Default Re: Newbie - how do I find a CNC shop that would deal with individuals? Please help!

    if you sent this model out to a machineshop, then very understable they turned you down..

    the reason is, because those details might require sinkeroding work...

    also only my opinion, you need a shop that producing stamps, like letters and similar.. they know effective ways to dealing with details like on the picture.
    a general machine shop will turn it down because without sinkeroding equipment this part requires a 5 axis machine,,
    and tooling for the details something like engraving bits..

    in steel, this work might takes hundreds of hours due to using engraving bits...

    when machine shop said they """can not do it""" , then try to imagine, if they bill out to you a bill about 15K due to the necessary time ...

    I think the best offer for you, would be buying a machine like the neogroup selling and fabricate yourself..

    click this link to the neogroup website...

    Hardware - NeoGroup Limited

    ================================================== ================================

    and a website for this type work..

    SOSSNER ROLL-A-MATIC: Solid Engraved Marking Tools



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    Default Re: Newbie - how do I find a CNC shop that would deal with individuals? Please help!

    Quote Originally Posted by victorofga View Post
    if you sent this model out to a machineshop, then very understable they turned you down..

    the reason is, because those details might require sinkeroding work...

    also only my opinion, you need a shop that producing stamps, like letters and similar.. they know effective ways to dealing with details like on the picture.
    a general machine shop will turn it down because without sinkeroding equipment this part requires a 5 axis machine,,
    and tooling for the details something like engraving bits..

    in steel, this work might takes hundreds of hours due to using engraving bits...

    when machine shop said they """can not do it""" , then try to imagine, if they bill out to you a bill about 15K due to the necessary time ...

    I think the best offer for you, would be buying a machine like the neogroup selling and fabricate yourself..

    click this link to the neogroup website...

    Hardware - NeoGroup Limited

    ================================================== ================================

    and a website for this type work..

    SOSSNER ROLL-A-MATIC: Solid Engraved Marking Tools
    Thank you so much for the good information!

    Same goes for everybody in the groop. You've been great, way beyound what I expected!

    I got a lot of information to think about, and need to consider my options and where to take the project from here. Perhaps there's a way to simplify the profile so that it's easier to machine, while still doing what it's supposed to. Again, thank you so much, have a great holiday!

    Boris

    Last edited by Boris123; 05-23-2014 at 12:17 AM. Reason: Grammar


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Newbie - how do I find a CNC shop that would deal with individuals? Please help!

Newbie - how do I find a CNC shop that would deal with individuals? Please help!