Ultra-Tool - ever tried them?

[mc-motorsports]

Somebody tell me if I'm doing something wrong here...

I go through a lot of 1/4" 4 flute solid carbide endmills and ballmills. So I figured I would try some TIalN coated tooling to see if I can increase the feeds and speeds vs. the uncoated endmills I use every day with production fixtures.

So I check with my two every day local suppliers (within driving distance) and they don't have much, and what the do have seems to be over priced. I REALLY want to try Gorilla Mill ballmills, so I ordered some through Dertsap, but it's going to take a while to get them because Gorilla Mill has a couple of week wait on ballmills for some reason? Guess they don't sell many, says right on the Gorilla website 2-4 week delivery time.

So, being impatient or anxious, or which ever, I ordered two 1/4" flatmills from McMaster Carr and two ballmills, TIalN coated, turns out they are "Ultra-Tool". No problem, goto thier website, but I wasn't real impressed with thier reccomended feeds/speeds... Ok, let's try them! (but at my normal DOC)

Keep in mind, I paid $20.50 each for the "Ultra-Tool" 1/4" flatmills, I get uncoated "USA Carbide" endmills in bulk from my local supplier for $5.50 each.

1018 cold rolled flat bar 3/4" thick, retro Bridgeport, 2hp, that's it.
I tried running .500" DOC, 3000 rpm, 12ipm, welding chips, wasn't happening.
Long story short , I end up running 2000rpm, 4imp .500" DOC full slotting, chattering like hell, more speed is blue chips, less feed is not acceptable, I get through 6 inches of material, move over, cut through 6 more linear inches of material, still chattering, move over and SNAP!

Try the second endmill, .250" DOC, 6ipm, a little more speed, doing ok, chattering though, more feed and I get blue chips that start sticking, more speed and I start welding chips.
Try the reccomended feeds and speeds, 3000rpm, 12imp .125" DOC, does ok, finish is a little rough though.
Back to .500" DOC, 2000 RPM and 4ipm, SNAP! There goes $41 worth of endmills. Should have just gone to the bar and drank beer tonight, would probably be further ahead...

So I put in a USED endmill, probably 4 hours of cutting on my USED uncoated cutter, same ones I use every day. .500" DOC 3ipm, 1800rpm full slotting (which is normal), goes right through, 10 passes on 6" wide material, better than 32 micro finish with 1 pass, no problems, on a USED cutter. So back to .125" DOC, full slot, 3000 RPM, 12ipm, getting about 16 micro finish, again, no problems.

I haven't tried the ballmills yet, ballmilling is REALLY where I need to save time, but I'm not real hopeful after trying out the flatmills. I figured I would try out the flatmills because it was easier. I could push just a little harder with the coated enmills, but they were chattering like hell. Plus, I get 6-8 hours of cutting out of an uncoated endmill at .500" DOC, full slotting, kinda doubting the TIalN endmills that I had would last longer than that, even if I slowed them down a bit.

Am I doing something wrong? Or are the $5.50 uncoated endmills that I buy every month just as good as a Premium SubGrain TIalN coated endmill that costs 4X as much?

And yes, I normally run coolant, but for some reason I though you were supposed to run TIalN coated endmills dry? Because they need to run hot because of the coating? My uncoated endmills run better without coolant than what I just blew my money on. And I get atleast 6 hours out of an endmill running coolant...

So if I'm missing the obvious here, please point it out. I don't want to burn through more money. At this point, I'm guessing the TIalN coating it's self doesn't allow you to increase the feeds/speeds like I though it would? And the endmills I bought are basically like what I already use, only with a coating to reduce wear? And I'm probably looking for a variable helix endmill?

[DareBee]

I feel the Ultra Tool are great cutters.
I use those same cutters for hardmilling.
I have never run them without coolant (except for HardMilling). The AT coated cutters need to run dry, the TA work great wet.
I also have not ever cut .5 dp with a .25 cutter (nor have I ever even considered it). Well... I have cut that deep but not with UT and only with roughing cutters, the amount of deflection you will get out of the cutter means multi pass is required to finish so use a rougher anyway. Typically I would do that slot at 4500 & 15IPM - 4 passes with that cutter (but that is just me).

UT speeds and feeds (last I checked) dont have allowance for the coating and typical application is to increase the SFM by 10-12%.

As far as cost goes, Everybody knows that McMs prices are way high, but service/delivery is the best ever. I think I pay around $14 for that cutter in my crappy CDN dollars (Typically double the price of an inexpensive solid).

Not much help but those are my thoughts

[Gumby]

Somebody tell me if I'm doing something wrong here...

I go through a lot of 1/4" 4 flute solid carbide endmills and ballmills. So I figured I would try some TIalN coated tooling to see if I can increase the feeds and speeds vs. the uncoated endmills I use every day with production fixtures.

So I check with my two every day local suppliers (within driving distance) and they don't have much, and what the do have seems to be over priced. I REALLY want to try Gorilla Mill ballmills, so I ordered some through Dertsap, but it's going to take a while to get them because Gorilla Mill has a couple of week wait on ballmills for some reason? Guess they don't sell many, says right on the Gorilla website 2-4 week delivery time.

So, being impatient or anxious, or which ever, I ordered two 1/4" flatmills from McMaster Carr and two ballmills, TIalN coated, turns out they are "Ultra-Tool". No problem, goto thier website, but I wasn't real impressed with thier reccomended feeds/speeds... Ok, let's try them! (but at my normal DOC)

Keep in mind, I paid $20.50 each for the "Ultra-Tool" 1/4" flatmills, I get uncoated "USA Carbide" endmills in bulk from my local supplier for $5.50 each.

1018 cold rolled flat bar 3/4" thick, retro Bridgeport, 2hp, that's it.
I tried running .500" DOC, 3000 rpm, 12ipm, welding chips, wasn't happening.
Long story short , I end up running 2000rpm, 4imp .500" DOC full slotting, chattering like hell, more speed is blue chips, less feed is not acceptable, I get through 6 inches of material, move over, cut through 6 more linear inches of material, still chattering, move over and SNAP!

Try the second endmill, .250" DOC, 6ipm, a little more speed, doing ok, chattering though, more feed and I get blue chips that start sticking, more speed and I start welding chips.
Try the reccomended feeds and speeds, 3000rpm, 12imp .125" DOC, does ok, finish is a little rough though.
Back to .500" DOC, 2000 RPM and 4ipm, SNAP! There goes $41 worth of endmills. Should have just gone to the bar and drank beer tonight, would probably be further ahead...

So I put in a USED endmill, probably 4 hours of cutting on my USED uncoated cutter, same ones I use every day. .500" DOC 3ipm, 1800rpm full slotting (which is normal), goes right through, 10 passes on 6" wide material, better than 32 micro finish with 1 pass, no problems, on a USED cutter. So back to .125" DOC, full slot, 3000 RPM, 12ipm, getting about 16 micro finish, again, no problems.

I haven't tried the ballmills yet, ballmilling is REALLY where I need to save time, but I'm not real hopeful after trying out the flatmills. I figured I would try out the flatmills because it was easier. I could push just a little harder with the coated enmills, but they were chattering like hell. Plus, I get 6-8 hours of cutting out of an uncoated endmill at .500" DOC, full slotting, kinda doubting the TIalN endmills that I had would last longer than that, even if I slowed them down a bit.

Am I doing something wrong? Or are the $5.50 uncoated endmills that I buy every month just as good as a Premium SubGrain TIalN coated endmill that costs 4X as much?

And yes, I normally run coolant, but for some reason I though you were supposed to run TIalN coated endmills dry? Because they need to run hot because of the coating? My uncoated endmills run better without coolant than what I just blew my money on. And I get atleast 6 hours out of an endmill running coolant...

So if I'm missing the obvious here, please point it out. I don't want to burn through more money. At this point, I'm guessing the TIalN coating it's self doesn't allow you to increase the feeds/speeds like I though it would? And the endmills I bought are basically like what I already use, only with a coating to reduce wear? And I'm probably looking for a variable helix endmill?

As far as I can tell Ultra Tools uses a good grade of carbide and at least a 600grit grinding wheel but their tool geometry is "generic". I have one of their 1/2 2fl tools right now and looks like a standard 30 degree helix tool. At 20.50 per cutter that is in the realm of coated variable helix tooling in a 1/4" tool. Darebee has it right on the DOC. .5" is too deep for a .25" cutter if you want to see any kind of reasonable MRR. With a 1/4" gorilla mill you should be pushing 36ipm not 3ipm at .25" depth and width of cut. The TiAlN coating is going to make a huge difference in cutting performance IF you are cutting correctly. If you go to slow with TiAlN tool you are wasting your money since the tools hardness actually increases with temperature (the actual temps depend on the specific coating). Gorilla Mills coatings for example increase in hardness up to 600 degree Celsius and level off to their max working temp of 900 degrees.

What kind of machine are you running the tool on? Taper, weight, and hp would be useful to know. Example: You aren't going to be pushing 36ipm in full slotting conditions with a Tormach or IH machine because of ridgidity issue but a 6000lb VMC is a different matter.

-Levi

[mc-motorsports]

I did get my hands on some Gorilla Mills, HUGE difference. The ultra-tools are basically what I was buying, just with the addition of the coating. Now the problem is I need more spindle speed. 3000rpm BP mill, I've maxed out my spindle and I can clearly tell these endmills and ballmills can take more than what I have as far as spindle speed. Not the case with the Ultra-Tool, or USA Carbide. The Gorilla mills are well worth the price!

[Gumby]

I did get my hands on some Gorilla Mills, HUGE difference. The ultra-tools are basically what I was buying, just with the addition of the coating. Now the problem is I need more spindle speed. 3000rpm BP mill, I've maxed out my spindle and I can clearly tell these endmills and ballmills can take more than what I have as far as spindle speed. Not the case with the Ultra-Tool, or USA Carbide. The Gorilla mills are well worth the price!

You should be spinning 4500 for the 1/4" tools to get your SFM correct. The coating they use on those tools will take more SFM (ie 400sfm in 17-4 steel), tool life just suffers a bit. What are you paying for the Gorilla Mill tools?

You might look into a spindle multiplier. They are kind of expensive but if you use a lot of smaller end mills they are really useful (especially cutting aluminum).

-Levi