Wanted: Career advice for the newbie

[Metalmatic]

Hello,

I just recently stumbled upon this site on accident. Well, not really; when I asked the Google Gods about CNC they pointed me over here. After browsing the various forums, I decided to make a post myself. So, here it goes...

A little bit about myself: I'm currently enrolled in a program where we are taught both, welding and CNC skills. The welding component of the program is much more extensive then the CNC portion. However, the CNC portion of said program is going to be starting in a few weeks, so I'd thought I register here and hopefully get some answers to a few of my questions.

So, here it goes guys. Hope you won't mind helping this novice out a bit.

1) I was wondering if you could offer any advice/recommendations/observations on what you think would be a better career move, welding or CNC/machinist work? I've heard and read about a supposed welding shortage on the horizon (more opportunity and a brighter future?); I've also been told that the better welding jobs (pipe) are mostly seasonal; that non-union jobs do not pay very much, etc. From the CNC side: Steady work; you are in a shop vs. in the field (weather being an issue for some people. I'm fine with working outdoors); merit shops - your skill set determines your worth vs. rank, nepotism, union politics, etc; maybe a lesser know skill than welding. With the folks over at the AWS sounding the alarm about needing new welders, more people will flock to welding then CNC, leaving more CNC positions available for the skilled.

2) Are there positions in the manufacturing industry where one could use both sets on skills on a job? So far, I really like stick welding. Although I haven't gotten into any of the CNC classes as of yet, I did take CAD 1 & 2, Architectural drafting 1 & 2, and PC repair classes in high school. I kinda have any idea what I will be getting into, but not entirely. I do believe that I will love the CNC portion of the program. What opportunities might be available to someone in a situation like mine.

3) I know developing welding skills outside of the classroom can be difficult. Is it equally as difficult developing CNC skills outside of the class/shop as it is in welding? What can I do on my own (spare/off time) to better my CNC skill set, if anything?

4) Lastly, what are employers looking for when hiring individuals that are new to the profession? Through the program I'm enrolled in, we are going to take (and hopefully pass) a test that leads to a National Institute for Metalworking Skills (NIMS) certification. I understand that certified does not equal qualified, but do you feel this certification will help someone just starting out? What can I do to get my foot in the door of a company that is proactive in the development of their employees? While money is important, I'm really looking for a place that I can really learn alot while at work. Any advice?

Those are some of the questions that I can think of off the top of my head. I'm sure as soon as I hit the 'submit' button, tons more will come racing to the fore-front of my mind. My CNC classes start in 2 weeks.

Thanks in advance,

Metalmatic

[JDenyer232]

Hello,

I just recently stumbled upon this site on accident. Well, not really; when I asked the Google Gods about CNC they pointed me over here. After browsing the various forums, I decided to make a post myself. So, here it goes...

A little bit about myself: I'm currently enrolled in a program where we are taught both, welding and CNC skills. The welding component of the program is much more extensive then the CNC portion. However, the CNC portion of said program is going to be starting in a few weeks, so I'd thought I register here and hopefully get some answers to a few of my questions.

So, here it goes guys. Hope you won't mind helping this novice out a bit.

1) I was wondering if you could offer any advice/recommendations/observations on what you think would be a better career move, welding or CNC/machinist work? I've heard and read about a supposed welding shortage on the horizon (more opportunity and a brighter future?); I've also been told that the better welding jobs (pipe) are mostly seasonal; that non-union jobs do not pay very much, etc. From the CNC side: Steady work; you are in a shop vs. in the field (weather being an issue for some people. I'm fine with working outdoors); merit shops - your skill set determines your worth vs. rank, nepotism, union politics, etc; maybe a lesser know skill than welding. With the folks over at the AWS sounding the alarm about needing new welders, more people will flock to welding then CNC, leaving more CNC positions available for the skilled.

2) Are there positions in the manufacturing industry where one could use both sets on skills on a job? So far, I really like stick welding. Although I haven't gotten into any of the CNC classes as of yet, I did take CAD 1 & 2, Architectural drafting 1 & 2, and PC repair classes in high school. I kinda have any idea what I will be getting into, but not entirely. I do believe that I will love the CNC portion of the program. What opportunities might be available to someone in a situation like mine.

3) I know developing welding skills outside of the classroom can be difficult. Is it equally as difficult developing CNC skills outside of the class/shop as it is in welding? What can I do on my own (spare/off time) to better my CNC skill set, if anything?

4) Lastly, what are employers looking for when hiring individuals that are new to the profession? Through the program I'm enrolled in, we are going to take (and hopefully pass) a test that leads to a National Institute for Metalworking Skills (NIMS) certification. I understand that certified does not equal qualified, but do you feel this certification will help someone just starting out? What can I do to get my foot in the door of a company that is proactive in the development of their employees? While money is important, I'm really looking for a place that I can really learn alot while at work. Any advice?

Those are some of the questions that I can think of off the top of my head. I'm sure as soon as I hit the 'submit' button, tons more will come racing to the fore-front of my mind. My CNC classes start in 2 weeks.

Thanks in advance,

Metalmatic

Well I can tell you as a machine shop supervisor, what it is that I look for in a new hire. The applicant must be familiar with most popular controls in shops today, ie Fanuc, Haas, and Mazak. Must be able to pass a written test on cnc setup and operating basics. Must be able to perform a setup on several simple parts and machine it to print specs, this weeds out the book smart, but no common sense types. I once weeded out a potential hire who was gonna run a turned part, he loaded the bar stock and left it sticking about 5ft out of the back of the lathe, can you say whip? A certification is a plus, but I'm gonna hire the guy that can prove he can do the job efficiently and safely. Two years experience in machining is a must if I need someone to hit the floor running, I will train and mentor an individual if they have the smarts and demonstrate the ability to learn and do things right, hey they have to get their experience somewhere and if I need the help and I don't need them up to speed right away I have no problem giving them that experience. There are alot of business's out there that have an in house machine shop to support R&D and product development. The shop I run is actually a department within a company that makes filters for microwave communications, ie cell phone stations, gps sytems, and military communications equipment. The pay is great, and there are lots of opportunities to machine some pretty cool stuff. There are a lot of machinists out there that are self taught, I am one of them, most machine shops will hire based on what you know and what you can do, not always based on # of years in school. Hope this helps answer some of your questions.

[Metalmatic]

Well I can tell you as a machine shop supervisor, what it is that I look for in a new hire. The applicant must be familiar with most popular controls in shops today, ie Fanuc, Haas, and Mazak. Must be able to pass a written test on cnc setup and operating basics. Must be able to perform a setup on several simple parts and machine it to print specs, this weeds out the book smart, but no common sense types. I once weeded out a potential hire who was gonna run a turned part, he loaded the bar stock and left it sticking about 5ft out of the back of the lathe, can you say whip? A certification is a plus, but I'm gonna hire the guy that can prove he can do the job efficiently and safely. Two years experience in machining is a must if I need someone to hit the floor running, I will train and mentor an individual if they have the smarts and demonstrate the ability to learn and do things right, hey they have to get their experience somewhere and if I need the help and I don't need them up to speed right away I have no problem giving them that experience. There are alot of business's out there that have an in house machine shop to support R&D and product development. The shop I run is actually a department within a company that makes filters for microwave communications, ie cell phone stations, gps sytems, and military communications equipment. The pay is great, and there are lots of opportunities to machine some pretty cool stuff. There are a lot of machinists out there that are self taught, I am one of them, most machine shops will hire based on what you know and what you can do, not always based on # of years in school. Hope this helps answer some of your questions.

Denyer232, thanks for your input. It is greatly appreciated. The CNC classes that I am about to take are very basic. I'm not 100% sure what machines we will be working on, but I know the length of the entire CNC portion of the program is only 3 months. I'm not really sure how much one can learn in said time frame, but I'll be sure to milk every minute of both classroom and shop time.

From what I understand, alot of guys just starting out do not do a whole lot of machining; they assist in set-up and things of that nature. I'm sure competence needs to be demonstrated before one can move on to the more advance aspects of machining, such as programming. I'm willing to sweep floors and learn things when times are slow or when others are willing to teach.

Keep the comments and suggestions coming guys!

Metalmatic

[JDenyer232]

When I first started doing this I got thrown into it. My company wanted to add cnc milling and turning capabilities for fast turnaround times and reduced costs. They told me to pick the machines I wanted, get some training and start making chips. Our first machine was a Fanuc Robodrill, after they got it set up and running I got 3 days training from the company we bought it from, then they turned me loose. When we aquired our turning center I didn't even get the training as I was already familiar with G-code by this time, and understood how to do the setup. If your motivated and resonably intelligent, you will have no problems learning cnc machining, in the begining there is a lot of trial and error, I recomend keeping a log book of things that you learn by trial and error, that way you will have a reference to look back on. I also recomend that you get a book called CNC Programming Techniques by Peter Smid. Not only does it cover programming but it also covers setups, both simple and complex. It also covers all the different G and M codes and the reasons behind them. There are a lot of resources on the web that can be very informative. G code itself is a very old and easy to use language once you know what the codes are, and the rules behind their use. Every program has a certain structure to it, there is the program beginning, a tool beginning and end for each tool, and the program end. Everything else in between is just motion commands and coordinates. Here is a sample program for a mill so you can see what the structure is. Everything in red is a note to show you what is going on.
% Tape begining
:0801 Program name
(Filename: 2-56 BOT MOUNT HOLES.tap) Any thing is () are notes for setup
(Post processor: facuc OI-MC post.post)
(Date: 12/31/2008)
G20 (Units: Inches, USE G54 ONLY ORIENT AS PER PRINT)
G00 G40 G49 G80 G90 G94 (Part: 2-56 BOT MOUNT HOLES)
(Process: Drill 2-56 BOT MOUNT HOLES, Drill, 0.25 inch diameter CENTER DRILL, 0.02 inch Deep)
G53 Z0.0 Assure that the Z axis is at machine home
G40 G49 G80 G90 G94 M01 Safety lines, ie cancel codes
G54 Work cordinate being used
(Drill, 0.25 inch diameter CENTER DRILL) Tool name
T10 M06 Change to this tool
M03 S5000 Turn on spindle clockwise, 5000rpm
G43 H10 G00 Z1.0 Call up height offset, move to 1" above part
M08 (Flood coolant on) Turn on coolantG00 Z0.1000 Rapid to .100" above part
X2.1500 Y0.1000 Motion commands and coordinates
Z0.0197
G01 Z-0.0200 F10.1
G00 Z0.1000
Y0.6500
Z0.0197
G01 Z-0.0200
G00 Z0.1000
X0.1000
Z0.0197
G01 Z-0.0200
G00 Z0.1000
Y0.1000
Z0.0197
G01 Z-0.0200
G00 Z0.1000
(Process: Drill 2-56 BOT MOUNT HOLES, Drill, 0.078 inch diameter 2-56 DRILL, 0.194 inch Deep)
M09 (Coolant off)
M05 Starting at this line are the tool end commands and safety lines
G00 Z1.0 M09
G53 Z0.0
G40 G49 G80 G90 G94 M01
G54 Start of next tool(Drill, 0.078 inch diameter 2-56 DRILL)
T7 M06
M03 S9000
G43 H7 G00 Z1.0
M08 (Flood coolant on)
G00 X0.1000 Y0.1000 Z0.1000
X2.1500
Z0.0197
G01 Z-0.0500 F20.1
G00 Z0.0250
Z-0.0303
G01 Z-0.1000
G00 Z-0.0250
Z-0.0803
G01 Z-0.1500
G00 Z-0.0750
Z-0.1303
G01 Z-0.1940
G00 Z0.1000
Y0.6500
Z0.0197
G01 Z-0.0500
G00 Z0.0250
Z-0.0303
G01 Z-0.1000
G00 Z-0.0250
Z-0.0803
G01 Z-0.1500
G00 Z-0.0750
Z-0.1303
G01 Z-0.1940
G00 Z0.1000
X0.1000
Z0.0197
G01 Z-0.0500
G00 Z0.0250
Z-0.0303
G01 Z-0.1000
G00 Z-0.0250
Z-0.0803
G01 Z-0.1500
G00 Z-0.0750
Z-0.1303
G01 Z-0.1940
G00 Z0.1000
Y0.1000
Z0.0197
G01 Z-0.0500
G00 Z0.0250
Z-0.0303
G01 Z-0.1000
G00 Z-0.0250
Z-0.0803
G01 Z-0.1500
G00 Z-0.0750
Z-0.1303
G01 Z-0.1940
G00 Z0.1000
(Process: Tap 2-56 BOT MOUNT HOLES, Rigid tap, 0.086 inch x 56 TPI 2-56 TAP, 0.15 inch Deep)
M09 (Coolant off)
M05
G00 Z1.0 M09
G53 Z0.0
G40 G49 G80 G90 G94 M01
G54
(Rigid tap, 0.086 inch x 56 TPI 2-56 TAP)
T8 M06
G43 H8 G00 Z1.0
M08 (Flood coolant on)
M03 S1000
G00 X0.1000 Y0.1000 Z0.1000
G95
M03
X2.1500
Z0.0394
G01 Z-0.1500 F0.0183
M05
M04
Z0.0394
M05
G00 Z0.1000
M03
Y0.6500
Z0.0394
G01 Z-0.1500
M05
M04
Z0.0394
M05
G00 Z0.1000
M03
X0.1000
Z0.0394
G01 Z-0.1500
M05
M04
Z0.0394
M05
G00 Z0.1000
M03
Y0.1000
Z0.0394
G01 Z-0.1500
M05
M04
Z0.0394
M05
G00 Z0.1000
G94
(Process: Drill 2-56 BOT MOUNT HOLES, Drill, 0.25 inch diameter CENTER DRILL, 0.042 inch Deep)
M09 (Coolant off)
M05
G00 Z1.0 M09
G53 Z0.0
G40 G49 G80 G90 G94 M01
G54
(Drill, 0.25 inch diameter CENTER DRILL)
T10 M06
M03 S5000
G43 H10 G00 Z1.0
M08 (Flood coolant on)
G00 X0.1000 Y0.1000 Z0.1000
X2.1500
Z0.0197
G01 Z-0.0420 F10.1
G00 Z0.1000
Y0.6500
Z0.0197
G01 Z-0.0420
G00 Z0.1000
X0.1000
Z0.0197
G01 Z-0.0420
G00 Z0.1000
Y0.1000
Z0.0197
G01 Z-0.0420
G00 Z0.1000
M09 (Coolant off)
M05
G00 Z1.0
G53 Z0.0 Program end linesM05 G00 G40 G49 G80 G90 G94
M30 Reset program to begining
% Tape end

This was done with a cam system, if I were hand coding it I would use canned cycles to keep things simple and do a lot less programming. Hope this helps you get started, go online and download a list of G and M codes, most are universal among different machine tool builders, but some machines do differ.

[jbt411]

Did a search for NIMS and come up with this thread. This is probably a good thread for newbs like myself.

[Metalmatic]

Did a search for NIMS and come up with this thread. This is probably a good thread for newbs like myself.

Thanks, brother!

We are scheduled to start the CNC portion of the program next Monday. To say your link is timely, would be an understatement!

I plan on keeping those interested, up to date on what's going on in class. I'll be sure to keep asking questions, as well.

Work with me guys! I am here to learn as much as possible.

[cncprofessor]

Hi Metalmatic,

How’s your second week in CNC class going? Hope you’ll find interesting enough to stick around, though, it could be a little overwhelming at the beginning. However, in due time, I am sure you'll find out that the investment of your time and effort were well worth it.

Keep us posted of your progress…

[Metalmatic]

Hi Metalmatic,

How’s your second week in CNC class going? Hope you’ll find interesting enough to stick around, though, it could be a little overwhelming at the beginning. However, in due time, I am sure you'll find out that the investment of your time and effort were well worth it.

Keep us posted of your progress…

Professor, The CNC portion of the class was pushed back a few weeks. The instructor was stricken with the swine flu. Instead of having someone sub the first few weeks of class, the other instructors decided to extend our Basic Stick Welding II and Blue Print Reading classes in order to fill the gap. We are slated to start the CNC portion of the program NOV.16.

I haven't dropped off the face of the earth. I still check this forum every other day or so. There seems to be much more interaction on this board then the Welding forums I visit.

I'm also going to the Fab show here (Chicago) in a few weeks. I'm hoping to learn a lot there as well.

MM

[Chrliev]

Hello Metalmatic,

Thought I would throw my 2cents in for your evaluation.

I have 30+ years in all manner of machining. During my carreer I have done everything from running small lathes and mills to working as a Manufacturing Engineer, programming large 3D parts and set-ups on 5-axis CNC gantry style aircraft milling machines, that are as big as a house.

I wish I had some welding experience, but if I had to choose one over the other it would be CNC machining. Besides the money for someone with 15+ years of experience ($100k+ yearly), CNC programming and machining is cleaner, easier on your hands, eyes and overall health. Designing from a computer allows a full measure of creativity using the latest of technological advances that human kind has to offer and it is rarely boring or repetitive. A new project still excites me and Mondays are always anticipated instead of dreaded.

I didn't necessarily pick this carreer, as you seem to have and I learned this on my own because when I started out there was no schooling available. I have only been to school as an instructor, but I have never been sorry for getting in to it, as every year for as long as I have been in this occupation I have had an opportunity to work with newer and better software and machinery, using the latest and greatest new innovations that human kind has developed.

This is not a slight on welders, because I wish I could weld, but give me a computer and a CNC machine any day...

[Metalmatic]

Hello Metalmatic,

Thought I would throw my 2cents in for your evaluation.

I have 30+ years in all manner of machining. During my carreer I have done everything from running small lathes and mills to working as a Manufacturing Engineer, programming large 3D parts and set-ups on 5-axis CNC gantry style aircraft milling machines, that are as big as a house.

I wish I had some welding experience, but if I had to choose one over the other it would be CNC machining. Besides the money for someone with 15+ years of experience ($100k+ yearly), CNC programming and machining is cleaner, easier on your hands, eyes and overall health. Designing from a computer allows a full measure of creativity using the latest of technological advances that human kind has to offer and it is rarely boring or repetitive. A new project still excites me and Mondays are always anticipated instead of dreaded.

I didn't necessarily pick this carreer, as you seem to have and I learned this on my own because when I started out there was no schooling available. I have only been to school as an instructor, but I have never been sorry for getting in to it, as every year for as long as I have been in this occupation I have had an opportunity to work with newer and better software and machinery, using the latest and greatest new innovations that human kind has developed.

This is not a slight on welders, because I wish I could weld, but give me a computer and a CNC machine any day...

Chrliev, thanks much! That's the type of insight I was hoping to find on some of the forums I frequent.

I'm always open to learning new things. When I was in high school (over 10 years ago) I had taken quite a few CAD and computer-based Architectural Drafting classes. I am also a certified computer repair tech. Now I know that my aforementioned background is not necessarily going to help me in the CNC class, I mention it however, because, I too, love working with computers and technology.

Your points regarding, both, welding and CNC, are well taken. I'm not sure if it's going to be possible, but maybe I can get into a company that will allow me to do a little bit of both!

I'm looking forward to class starting soon. Once it does, I'll post the sylabus for everyone to take a look at. I'll also keep you guys up to date on current projects and how the preparation for NIMS goes. For those interested, I'm scheduled to become a certified stick welder early next spring as well.

Get the comments and suggestions coming guys!

Metalmatic

[Geof]

Here is a suggestion; semi-serious.

For the moment forget the CNC, take up welding and become really good at it. Get pressure welding certification and then you can do pipeline welding and pull in five figure paychecks each month. Develop the knack to do really fancy TIG welding on exotic metals and shapes and you can do the same; not immediately but it is possible.

Of course welding pipelines laying on your back in permafrost up on the tundra gets a bit hard to take as the years go by; also squinting at a TIG arc gets more and more difficult with the years.

Then you switch into CNC and work in a nice warm building and let the machines do it all for you.

Seriously; do both. My apprenticeship as a machinist included not only machining and fitting/millwright work but also electric and gas welding and brazing. MIG and TIG were not common when I served my time but I have picked them up over the years. There are numerous times when the different skills are complementary. Being able to weld up your own fixtures is very handy. Knowing how things can be easily machined is handy working on a weldment. Knowing how the stresses in a weldment may be distributed is handy when you have to machine one. Etc.

[Metalmatic]

Here is a suggestion; semi-serious.

For the moment forget the CNC, take up welding and become really good at it. Get pressure welding certification and then you can do pipeline welding and pull in five figure paychecks each month. Develop the knack to do really fancy TIG welding on exotic metals and shapes and you can do the same; not immediately but it is possible.

Of course welding pipelines laying on your back in permafrost up on the tundra gets a bit hard to take as the years go by; also squinting at a TIG arc gets more and more difficult with the years.

Then you switch into CNC and work in a nice warm building and let the machines do it all for you.

Seriously; do both. My apprenticeship as a machinist included not only machining and fitting/millwright work but also electric and gas welding and brazing. MIG and TIG were not common when I served my time but I have picked them up over the years. There are numerous times when the different skills are complementary. Being able to weld up your own fixtures is very handy. Knowing how things can be easily machined is handy working on a weldment. Knowing how the stresses in a weldment may be distributed is handy when you have to machine one. Etc.

Thanks, Geof!

The program in which I am involved focuses much more on welding than machining. However, the instructors continually remind us that many graduates do go on to be machinists. By the time I complete the entire program, I'll have 4-5 welding certifications and a CNC (NIMS) certification. In fact, I'll have the NIMS by FEB '09 and be certified in stick shortly after.

From talking to people that have been around both industries, one of the biggest gripes typically comes from wages and benefits. The welders I talk to don't like the fact the CNC guys do not have a union (thus weaker benefits, lower pay,etc); the CNC guys don't like the instability involved with new construction (down time, being laid off, having to put your name on a list to be called, etc). Being a neophyte, I tend to do more listening then talking. I don't have a dog in this fight, so to speak.

I don't want this thread to be about union vs. non-union (I'm sure there are other threads for that issue). I'm trying to get from "Alpha to Omega" and both programs seem to have interesting paths on how to get there.

Good stuff.

Keep the comments and suggestions coming guys!

Metalmatic