| | |
So, being a GOLD MEMBER gives the right for personal attacks ?Originally Posted by RomanLini
Maybe that's how it works on planet Krypton, but here on planet Earth I think if you charged him for "2 hours of drawing" any lawyer that comes after you will easily convince the magistrate that the "2 hours" he paid you for was 2 hours of creating a CAD file.
Or are you saying you made the CAD file completely on your own time, and the "2 hours of drawing" you charged him for was when you pressed the print button?
I'm AUS like yourself, but, at least i'm not a banana bender.
& I'll stand by my comments, if the client paid for the drawing time only....he is then entitled to the drawing only.
The CAD model creation is part of the process to getting NC code & manufacturing the part
But on copyrights, you do NOT have the right to pass that design onto another totally different party that was not involved in the original agreement.
The client also has the right to ask you to destroy all data relating to that product.
Superman
It says that your location is Krypton, I don't see how, RomanLini made a personal attack
Number 1 you are/have infringed a copyright/trademark law by using the Superman logo
Number 2 an Idea/design are not covered by copyright law
His work is not covered by a copyright & belongs to who every payed for it
Cad! All mine! I love how passionate everyone is! It's great to see that.
Here's a little something for you. One of my customers jumped on the china band wagon, got wined and dined and promised the world. Production begins and container loads are arriving.
Move the clock forward three yrs .............................
I know have an order to re-make his whole tooling range because the quality and consistency of the china produced parts are now increasingly getting worse.
I say give him a copy of the drawings and while you are there let them know it's been a pleasure doing business.
I now have a total of over 25 sets of tooling to remake because the land of the great wall has no quality control or any interest in my customers concerns about the quality of their product.
The amount of work I have picked up from ex-china "trading partners", is awesome. They appreciate my work more now that they are back. I didn't even have to hire titty girls and fancy hookers like the Chinese do to get their business.
So I say, give them a printout of the drawings, cover your ass for next time by clearly stating what you are charging them for, then sit back and wait. They all come back.
Quick question? Can I have a copy of the drawing? Just wanna see what the fuss is all about.
Mark
CAD Programs look nice, but pencil and paper are quicker :-)
OzyMark
Please accept my apology Superman! That was not meant as a personal attack in any way. I though it was obvious I was making a joke, but things that we might laugh at in real conversation can look serious if printed out in words.
That's an interesting point... Charging "for drawing" (the verb) is charging for the act of doing the drawing, which to me means the act of making the CAD file. But charging for "the drawing" (the noun) can be the cost of an item, a drawing.
I should probably shut up here, like I said I'm not a lawyer and I have never even charged for CAD time, although I have made computer software under contract and designed electronic hardware under contract and even provided art and logo design etc under contract and in all cases supplied all the design files to the customer as part of what I was paid to do.
Hopefully someone with actual legal input can speak up? Has anyone been sued for not providing files? Or successfully won a case that let them keep the files even after charging the customer for "drawing time"?
From my own small experience in business legal issues a lot seems to come down to the customer expectation, if they paid you in full expectation of receiving X they have a real good chance before the magistrate of getting that X.
That would be my contention.. They paid him for the output.. Only AFTEr they dumped him did they realize they would like to have "X".
Itemizing your time and materials and tooling doesnt give the payer any right to that.. Only what was contracted to be provided.. The "widget"..
I am trying to imagine how much stuff I own if I can go back over any itemized billing!!! I think I'll start with my phone bill. lol
Since none of us are his customer we can only speculate as to what they expected to receive.
That's what I have a problem with. If the customer paid for his "time to design" (and that was the time to create the CAD files) what is this separate "engineering" that they did not pay for?
OK - I know this is an older thread but I've noticed an important omission that perhaps many haven't thought of.
First of all I live in the United States, but this applies to most countries. Anyway, I'm going to proceed as if the things being moved are coming from the United States. It is stated that they are going to China and as such fall under export laws. Under those circumstances you need to insure that whatever you are sending does not violate U.S. technology transfer laws. Intellectual Property can fall under various export restrictions depending upon where it is being sent. It is the shipper/senders responsibility to get the proper export documentation before they send intellectual property out of the country.
Violations frequently occur as people develop goods in the U.S. that may be used in activities such as arms production, nuclear or biological handling, or just provide a clear manufacturing advantage to the end user company. Engineering or design activities frequently fall under these restrictions. If this set of drawings, models, or even machine programs were to turn out to be restricted your close friends with Homeland Security will eventually be paying you a visit - not good.
If these items were restricted then it wouldn't matter if the Chinese company owned them or not - they cannot leave the United States without cleared export documentation.
So why should all of us care? Because this also applies to internet posts and e-mail. In this forum we are pretty safe since CNC machines are an old and well established worldwide technology. But let's say that you figured out how to build a 6-axis, robot fed, AI controlled manufacturing cell and wanted some bragging right to all of us here. There is a very good chance that since this might allow you to do some sort of complex monoblock machining (well - maybe) it could be used in nuclear weapons production, or provide an unfriendly country with a manufacturing advantage to the detriment of the U.S. As such the posts might very well fall under technology transfer restrictions and get you into a boatload of trouble. Also as many of us started incorporating this latest "cool" thing into our designs and posting about them we would have the unpleasant joy of joining you in dealing with the concerned federal departments.
Our friends in various other countries (Great Britain, Australia, Etc.) have some variation on these restrictions. The posts that we make here are usually safe but we all work on items that might not be. We need to be very aware of what we are sending out of our countries and where they are going. I've worked for companies that were sold to overseas concerns and imagine the purchasers great surprise when nothing that they had purchased could leave the U.S. I've also seen people get in a lot of trouble when they did the common sense thing under those circumstances and didn't insure they had the proper export clearances.
This is now long enough -- See Ya!
Maybe I'm missing something, but if the company that purchased the items is outside the US than it is not subject to US law or under US jurisdiction?
Possibly the original US owners of the items could be in trouble with their own country for releasing the items to foreigners, but the new owners of the items (assuming they had received the items) are not subject to US internal law and could do whatever they liked with the items they purchased.
Export laws and "common sense" are not even remotely related. Restricted technology cannot leave the United States - Period. It doesn't matter whether it is intellectual property (blueprints, etc.) or material goods, nor who legally owns it. So let's say a Chinese company purchases a U.S. company that and transfers restricted technology to China. The minimum hit that they will take is a complete Import/Export stop for 10 years. They won't be allowed to move anything into or out of the country for 10 years.
If they were to buy, let's say, a small company working on some sort of arms development then things would probably get more proactive. For starters the government might get a court order preventing the sale. For sure they will keep an eye on what is happening within the company and if there are indications that they are attempting to transfer technology they will step in.
The real point of my original post, however, is that we all need to be aware that these restrictions exist and affect all of us. When we have discussions in this forum, post prints, etc. we need to keep an eye on what we're transferring across what borders. To some degree since the internet is open to the entire world we need to treat posts as if they are being sent to the most restricted countries, for example most of the middle east. E-mails would be less so since they are directed, but you still need to be aware of the status of the country you are sending it to.
I'm not trying to scare anyone but trying to make everyone aware of a potential land mine on this playing field.
Everyone have a great holiday!
The way things are going with the corporations driving the policies and legislature they want, and countries like our own following suit in our eagerness to show our friendship, is anyone anywhere truly outside U.S. jurisdiction? Apart from China obviously.
Having said that, unless you "state" your plans are for a missile heater unit, or something equally military oriented, I don't see how any info exchanged here would be anything but noise to eavesdroppers.
cheers,
Ian
It's rumoured that everytime someone buys a TB6560 based board, an engineer cries!
MillMaker- At the risk of sounding argumentative you made some strong statements that I am not sure are true.
Sure it CAN. It has done on many occasions when spies have stolen restricted tech including nuclear and military tech from the US. Let's not confuse cannot with shouldnot.
It doesn't matter to who? You seem to be taking the stance that the US government has total power over everything and everyone? I'm not anti-US in any way but that does seem to be a rather immature attitude. Where is this coming from? Is there something in your constitution where the Govt can take away the property rightfully owned by an individual, to stop it being sold to a foreign power? Or is this just some new law that was made up recently?
Again, who is it that "won't be allowed"? The entire nation of China? Or the specific company who bought the item? Even if you can block that specific company they can just pass the item on to another company under another name, even in another country etc as is very standard business practice.
That sounds logical and realistic. However there is still a very real difference between what a government WANTS to stop, and the fact of what it CAN stop. And possibly what it has the RIGHT to stop, although that is diverging away from what is fact towards what is political conjecture.
And that is a very important point. Thank you for bringing it up!I'm not particularly interested in developing military hardware and so like most people here have not given it much thought. How much risk do we face as private individuals from this? Like if someone here develops a high resolution digital readout that allows more precise machining, and sells it to someone in China, and they sell it someone in North Korea, and they use it to make something naughty... Well you get the picture.
I worked in the US defense industry for more than 40 years. Many of those years were on programs that involved transfer of technology outside of the US. Throughout all those years I was briefed by corporate lawyers annually on the details of US import/export law. While working on programs that deliberately involved transfer of technology we had to get licenses and frequently were at either or both the Dept of State or Defense. It’s been a few years since I retired and I tried to put all that detail out of my head as soon as I left the office for the last time.
Based upon that experience I read MillMaker’s comments and thought they were pretty much correct. In arguing with him it seems to me you are trying to split hairs. Obviously the law would not say restricted material can never be exported. It would say something like it is always illegal to export restricted material without a license. But for purposes of conveying information quickly MillMaker’s statement is clear and even though it implies the reader must be alert enough to mentally add caveats about stealing, fraud, import/export law etc. that is both normal and accepted in conversation.
h
Surprisingly the individual liberties and rights of property ownership that we all take for granted do not extend across borders. A foreign company that wants to buy a US property probably can’t. It can however contract with a US agent that acts as the owner. Agents in this business are well versed in import/export law and they will not knowingly get into a deal where technology is being transferred. The penalties for getting caught are too steep, forfeiture of company licenses to do import/export business and severe prison sentences plus massive fines for individuals working for the company. The same applies to foreign individuals that make a visit to the company they own and ‘walk out the door with a thumb drive’. The individual might get away with it but one of his own employees might turn him in before he gets to the airport. Once Customs get the thumb drive the individual will be headed to jail and if needed the company can be seized to pay the fine. The employee that turned him in might be out of a job but the employee gets to pocket 1/3 of the fine so the job may no longer be important. Further these are not just US rules. Although the details might vary the UK and the commonwealth countries, the NATO countries, Persian Gulf countries, Israel and I don’t know who else all have similar or more restrictive import/export laws.
Finally restricted material can range from ideas provided in conversation to actual machinery. When we are talking about import/export “in whose eyes” is easily answered. It is in the eyes of the Customs agent with the gun and handcuffs. When I was working we were guided to not send encrypted e-mail that included critical ideas between US sites via the public internet because the mail could be routed via Switzerland and that would be an illegal export. Based upon a note in this or a related forum I once cautioned a US sales engineer about selling some special lathes to an Arabic country because it seemed obvious that the lathes would be useful for making centrifuge parts and the buyer quite possibly could be a front for Iran. The cautions and replies were in private mails and yes the company lawyers were very involved.
If you go to the US State Departments public web page and enter a search for Import/Export you will be guided to lists of restricted materials but those lists always seem to be caveated by a phrase like ‘and anything else deemed to be against the public interest’. I believe that there are also lists on the Dept of Commerce web pages although they did not impact my work. Also associated with these rules are lists of countries that get more severe or less restrictions. It is all there in public for anyone to look up.
Tom
Posting Permissions
| | |
LinkBack URL
About LinkBacks
